Personal computers: does everyone need to learn programming? (1984) • Hacker News Board

Re: Personal computers: does everyone need to learn programming? (1984)

#21

Post by qserasera » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 6:01 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #18

Kednicma wrote: post #4

I like the bit at the end about studying the classics in Latin and Greek. It helps me see that "language" is not quite the right word for programming systems, and that this wrong word choice has led to writers falsely thinking that learning to program is like learning a second language. But a language is tied to its execution context and semantics. This leads to either dividing up languages into "natlangs" and "conla…

This is the "I like tinkering with cars therefore everyone should be a mechanic" argument. There's no justification for it. Maybe 20% of the population - at best - is even capable of that kind of programming. [1] Most people simply don't do symbolic abstraction at that level, and forcing them to try would create resentment, not literacy. And "conlangs" are indeed different to "natlangs." There's definitely a case to…

> There might be a case for some very basic experience with programming in schools.

The high school (mid 2010s) I went to somewhat recently had ZERO programming classes and about 4 AP classes. Middle schools had basic typing classes. I am unaware if this is changing at a rapid pace but I would hope we could improve computer literacy by making kids take a few basics classes about things they use every day.

Re: Personal computers: does everyone need to learn programming? (1984)

#22

Post by armadsen » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 6:02 PM UTC

cgh wrote: post #20

GuiA wrote: post #2

I originally posted this (in 2013! reposted today prompted by HN's second chance pool) because it struck me how, with very few modifications, this exact article could be republished today. I find it fascinating that we can be having the same arguments that people a half century ago were having, with little to no awareness that we're repeating the exact same things. It makes me realize that perhaps software is not as…

Small nitpick: 1984 was significantly less than a half century ago. But otherwise yes, the greater point is history tends to teach us nothing.

Having been born in 1984, I'm definitely not ready to be 50 just yet.

Re: Personal computers: does everyone need to learn programming? (1984)

#23

Post by dfxm12 » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 6:09 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #18

Kednicma wrote: post #4

I like the bit at the end about studying the classics in Latin and Greek. It helps me see that "language" is not quite the right word for programming systems, and that this wrong word choice has led to writers falsely thinking that learning to program is like learning a second language. But a language is tied to its execution context and semantics. This leads to either dividing up languages into "natlangs" and "conla…

This is the "I like tinkering with cars therefore everyone should be a mechanic" argument. There's no justification for it. Maybe 20% of the population - at best - is even capable of that kind of programming. [1] Most people simply don't do symbolic abstraction at that level, and forcing them to try would create resentment, not literacy. And "conlangs" are indeed different to "natlangs." There's definitely a case to…

This is the "I like tinkering with cars therefore everyone should be a mechanic" argument.

Everyone shouldn't feel intimidated by trying to change their headlights though. You don't need to program at a professional level or have professional tools to "program" an excel spreadsheet to handle your monthly budget or to write a shell script that searches your photos folder for new files to copy to a back up drive periodically.

If one wants to pay for convenience, OK, but I do think there's real value in equipping the average person with more than some very basic experience with programming.

Re: Personal computers: does everyone need to learn programming? (1984)

#24

Post by Kednicma » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 10:35 PM UTC

dfxm12 wrote: post #23

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the "I like tinkering with cars therefore everyone should be a mechanic" argument. There's no justification for it. Maybe 20% of the population - at best - is even capable of that kind of programming. [1] Most people simply don't do symbolic abstraction at that level, and forcing them to try would create resentment, not literacy. And "conlangs" are indeed different to "natlangs." There's definitely a case to…

This is the "I like tinkering with cars therefore everyone should be a mechanic" argument. Everyone shouldn't feel intimidated by trying to change their headlights though. You don't need to program at a professional level or have professional tools to "program" an excel spreadsheet to handle your monthly budget or to write a shell script that searches your photos folder for new files to copy to a back up drive period…

Yes, and to expand upon the magic word you used: Excel claimed 30mil users in the mid-1990s [0] and various estimates I've read put the current usage at somewhere between 500-600mil users. I think Excel is the most popular domain-specific programming language on the planet.

[0] https://news.microsoft.com/1996/05/20/more-than-30-million-u...

Re: Personal computers: does everyone need to learn programming? (1984)

#25

Post by gdubs » Wed, Jul 08, 2020, 12:29 AM UTC

cwoolfe wrote: post #17

Writing software is easier in 2020 than it was when I started in 2002. Coding education is more accessible, Coding platforms are more inviting, languages are more forgiving, IDEs are more helpful, we have millions of answers on stackoverflow, and there are open-source libraries that have probably implemented whatever irks you. That being said, for the professional, I have found no substitute for the academic rigor of…

So, maybe for a professional it’s easier. I feel that way about making iOS apps — better time to start than ever!

But there’s almost a ‘choice paralysis’ today. People have so many options they don’t know where to start.

Not sure anything comes close to opening up BASIC or HyperCard and just making something, and seeing the results immediately.

Agreed on the fundamentals — as a mostly self taught programmer, it took me a long time to learn and understand the power of computer science concepts.

Re: Personal computers: does everyone need to learn programming? (1984)

#26

Post by cwoolfe » Wed, Jul 08, 2020, 1:29 PM UTC

gdubs wrote: post #25

cwoolfe wrote: post #17

Writing software is easier in 2020 than it was when I started in 2002. Coding education is more accessible, Coding platforms are more inviting, languages are more forgiving, IDEs are more helpful, we have millions of answers on stackoverflow, and there are open-source libraries that have probably implemented whatever irks you. That being said, for the professional, I have found no substitute for the academic rigor of…

So, maybe for a professional it’s easier. I feel that way about making iOS apps — better time to start than ever! But there’s almost a ‘choice paralysis’ today. People have so many options they don’t know where to start. Not sure anything comes close to opening up BASIC or HyperCard and just making something, and seeing the results immediately. Agreed on the fundamentals — as a mostly self taught programmer, it took…

Definitely agree there is a choice paralysis, especially among web technologies. I'm thankful that Apple iOS usually only has one way to do most common things. I think that kind of leadership is helpful when the alternative is choice paralysis. The flipside is that it constrains those who have a legitimate reason to do it differently.