Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987 • Hacker News Board

Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987

#21

Post by whatshisface » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 10:04 PM UTC

cbhl wrote: post #19

whatshisface wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have some unsubstantiated armchair opinions about something, the right thing to do isn't to publish them and wait for someone to correct you, it's to remain silent until you find a reason for you opinion, or change your opinion. Otherwise, we would drown in a sea of well-written articles that say "X is true" and "X is false" with equal frequency, and no matter how many we read we would never learn anything.

In mathematics, an unsubstantiated armchair opinion is called a "conjecture", and can be subsequently proven or disproven by the same person or another person. If scientists of yore had "remain silent until you find a reason for your opinion" we'd probably still think the sun revolves around the earth.

Mathematicians clearly label their conjectures, but this was phrased as a statement. Surely you are not suggesting that mathematicians go around publishing their guesses with language indistinguishable from their knowledge.

Strictly speaking, as you suggest, it wouldn't be wrong to write, "I thought about it, and although I don't have any reason to believe it, the notion that women don't form groups for the sake of comradeship settled in to my mind, and with a gust of wind, floated from there to this paper." However nobody would ever write that! Passing off guesses as knowledge only works as a career if you try to dress up your guesses as knowledge, for example by phrasing them in a way that makes it sound like they're already commonly known.

Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987

#22

Post by Kednicma » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 10:06 PM UTC

I see people complaining that he was canceled, but if it takes three and a half decades to get canceled, then I'm not sure I see the problem. If I were to write an article about how I think that women ought not to serve in the military, or any such similar drivel, then I would probably perish naturally before any punishment arrived.

Are folks here anticipating that they themselves will get canceled for their old sexist writings, or is there something else here?

Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987

#23

Post by threatofrain » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 10:10 PM UTC

wegs wrote: post #9

Core to any sort of social progress is the belief that people can change, and people changing. I sure as heck wouldn't want anyone judged for views they held 30 years ago. I don't want to be judged for the views I hold today in 30 years either. That goes for most actions too: Even if you murdered someone 30 years ago, if you served your time and reformed, you ought to be able to have a normal life now. I'm a differen…

The problem is there isn't a culturally agreeable calculus to know when someone is trustworthy, and that the "punishment" here is one of withdrawing from relations through the free exercise of association. The main intervention you can do is to tell people to stop exercising their freedom of association.

> That goes for most actions too: Even if you murdered someone 30 years ago, if you served your time and reformed, you ought to be able to have a normal life now.

If a person molested one child 30 years, should a label of "sex offender" follow them as they attempt to regain their life as a youth educator? Should they never ever be allowed near children again?

If someone wrote in their youth on the violent nature of the negro and their intellectual inferiority, should they be entrusted with a leadership position over black Americans?

Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987

#24

Post by asveikau » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 10:10 PM UTC

apsec112 wrote: post #20

asveikau wrote: post #12

Maybe he was asked to quit, perhaps rather forcefully. But he is going out in a classy way by saying his prior position was wrong. The people on this thread calling this "cancel culture" could learn something from the frankness of the statement. Keep in mind his company has military contracts. If the PR guy is on record opposing women in the military, even a long time ago... Not good.

This culture of "never forget, no excuses, no forgiveness" is part of why the US has so many people in prison. Suppose someone commits an armed robbery. They should be arrested, certainly, for many reasons. But after they have been tried, punished, and served their sentence, should they be permanently exiled from society? Should they never be able to find employment for the rest of their life? No, because that doesn'…

I totally believe in forgiveness.

But I think you miss the point. This guy's entire job was promote the public image when, among other things, selling to the military. And he wasn't rank and file. He was near the top.

He won't have trouble finding a job that doesn't involve giving a bad image to a military contractor.

Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987

#25

Post by apsec112 » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 10:13 PM UTC

Kednicma wrote: post #22

I see people complaining that he was canceled, but if it takes three and a half decades to get canceled, then I'm not sure I see the problem. If I were to write an article about how I think that women ought not to serve in the military, or any such similar drivel, then I would probably perish naturally before any punishment arrived. Are folks here anticipating that they themselves will get canceled for their old sexi…

This sort of retroactive vindictiveness is bad for everyone. In 1987, almost no one supported gay marriage, and many people wrote articles saying so. (DOMA was enacted in 1996 under Bill Clinton.) A lot of people, perhaps a majority of Americans, have changed their minds in the light of new arguments and evidence. How willing will anyone be to change their minds, if the response is "that doesn't matter, you're fired and exiled from polite society for the rest of your life"?

"An army officer in the Qin dynasty was supposed to lead his troops somewhere but got delayed.

He asked a friend of his "What is the penalty for being late?"

"Death." Says his friend.

He then asks "What is the penalty for rebellion?"

"Death." Says his friend.

He replies "Well then..." And thus began the Dazexiang Uprising."

Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987

#26

Post by apsec112 » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 10:16 PM UTC

asveikau wrote: post #24

apsec112 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This culture of "never forget, no excuses, no forgiveness" is part of why the US has so many people in prison. Suppose someone commits an armed robbery. They should be arrested, certainly, for many reasons. But after they have been tried, punished, and served their sentence, should they be permanently exiled from society? Should they never be able to find employment for the rest of their life? No, because that doesn'…

I totally believe in forgiveness. But I think you miss the point. This guy's entire job was promote the public image when, among other things, selling to the military. And he wasn't rank and file. He was near the top. He won't have trouble finding a job that doesn't involve giving a bad image to a military contractor.

He wasn't re-assigned, transferred, or demoted, even though Boeing is a big company with plenty of positions - he was fired. And many people are willing to fire even blue-collar workers and random small business managers:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/stop-firin...

Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987

#27

Post by whatshisface » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 10:16 PM UTC

Kednicma wrote: post #22

I see people complaining that he was canceled, but if it takes three and a half decades to get canceled, then I'm not sure I see the problem. If I were to write an article about how I think that women ought not to serve in the military, or any such similar drivel, then I would probably perish naturally before any punishment arrived. Are folks here anticipating that they themselves will get canceled for their old sexi…

Here's the worry that I'm hearing from people:

1. I write an article or a comment that's acceptable, or even encouraged by the powerful people running the show today.

2. The powerful people get changed out for other powerful people, and they start encouraging different articles, articles very different from the ones I've been writing.

3. The new powerful people attack me for following the old powerful people, even though I'm willing to follow the new powerful people now that they're in charge.

4. I serve my time, and now that I'm out of the doghouse, the new powerful people want me to write things that agree with them. How can I feel safe doing that, when I will probably get thrown in the doghouse again once the next revolution happens?

Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987

#28

Post by hindsightbias » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 10:23 PM UTC

If a United States Naval Officer goes to the trouble to get his passionate views into the annals of the USNI, you better go to the trouble to retract them if you’ve evolved.

This wasn’t some tweet. And context matters in retrospect given what happened in the Tailhook era.

Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987

#29

Post by apsec112 » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 10:24 PM UTC

hindsightbias wrote: post #28

If a United States Naval Officer goes to the trouble to get his passionate views into the annals of the USNI, you better go to the trouble to retract them if you’ve evolved. This wasn’t some tweet. And context matters in retrospect given what happened in the Tailhook era.

The article says he apologized:

"Golightly stepped down Thursday as Boeing’s senior vice president of communications following an employee complaint about the 1987 article, which he called “embarrassingly wrong and offensive.”"

Re: Boeing communications boss resigns over sexist article he wrote in 1987

#30

Post by whatshisface » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 10:25 PM UTC

threatofrain wrote: post #23

wegs wrote: post #9

Core to any sort of social progress is the belief that people can change, and people changing. I sure as heck wouldn't want anyone judged for views they held 30 years ago. I don't want to be judged for the views I hold today in 30 years either. That goes for most actions too: Even if you murdered someone 30 years ago, if you served your time and reformed, you ought to be able to have a normal life now. I'm a differen…

The problem is there isn't a culturally agreeable calculus to know when someone is trustworthy, and that the "punishment" here is one of withdrawing from relations through the free exercise of association. The main intervention you can do is to tell people to stop exercising their freedom of association. > That goes for most actions too: Even if you murdered someone 30 years ago, if you served your time and reformed,…

Pragmatically, the trust we should give to a former criminal should scale with where we think their crime lies on the "innate" to "acute" spectrum. For example, teenage joyriding is something we can expect people to get over, so you would probably feel okay letting a 50-year-old with that (and nothing else) on their record valet your car. I would suggest that ideas are some of the easiest things to change.