The article does not seem to address, should one patent a method or algorithm that defines your product as a startup before launching the product?
Author here. From the content, >Most countries don’t allow patent for a software[1]. Economic theories, methods of doing business, mathematical methods or computer programs as such are not patentable inventions in several countries. The hyperlinked content from WIPO details about patentability of softwares/algorithm(Link doesn't seem to be working now, so including archive) In short, in USA - "According to the US Sup…
Myths about Patents and Trademarks in startups
21–30 of 34 posts
Re: Myths about Patents and Trademarks in startups
#22A few comments: The patent and trademark systems around the World differ. USPTO is very open to business method patents, and software patents. In EPO countries software has to have a real World effect, mostly, to be patentable. Patent agents/attorneys do specialise. Defensive publication is cheap, no need to get a patent to defend yourself. Though if you want to retain a "secret sauce" as part of your product they co…
Re: Myths about Patents and Trademarks in startups
#23Excellent article, I'm bookmarking it to help my customers to realize most of the time they are loosing their time and money with patents
Re: Myths about Patents and Trademarks in startups
#24A few comments: The patent and trademark systems around the World differ. USPTO is very open to business method patents, and software patents. In EPO countries software has to have a real World effect, mostly, to be patentable. Patent agents/attorneys do specialise. Defensive publication is cheap, no need to get a patent to defend yourself. Though if you want to retain a "secret sauce" as part of your product they co…
>>This may help in getting the patent, but it also enables someone else to exploit the same loop holes to file a patent for the copy of our invention by just changing the grammar/vocabulary because our patent was too generic. >That's not how that works.
I think, it's incomplete when the prior argument for that is not included.
This is the complete argument -
>Unfortunately, patent attorneys tend to force the inventor to not to be specific in describing their invention in the patent application in order to exploit the loop holes in patent examination; This may help in getting the patent, but it also enables someone else to exploit the same loop holes to file a patent for the copy of our invention by just changing the grammar/vocabulary because our patent was too generic.
That is, if you compromise while drafting patent someone else will exploit it the same way.
>Investor expectations is a big reason to get a patent.
I agree, especially if it's a 'proven' HW startup. Emphasis on 'proven', if the patent is not for a solution which solves a real problem with commercial viability, no investor is going to turn your side even if you get a patent i.e. in other words if you are not sure about the success of your product, patents are just a waste of time and wouldn't bring investors magically.
>I'm imagining the author is not in a Western country based on the dropped indefinite articles??
True.
>Some idea of their experience would help give authority to the article.
Close family member is a patent attorney with 20 years experience, having worked for largest multinational companies and current work being facilitating patent deals(usually worth several millions) in a foreign country (My arguments in this content was validated with that attorney). I have personally applied and later abandoned International patents for my products in my earlier startup (The said attorney was not involved in my patent application due to work clauses).
Re: Myths about Patents and Trademarks in startups
#25Re: Myths about Patents and Trademarks in startups
#26Earlier quoted context omitted.
Totally understandable. There is a minority of non-CS commenters on HN, so I always try to expand the conversation. Wasn't meant as pejorative. Re your comment on generics saving lives, yea, this is a pickle question between sovereigns in negotiating trade agreements. The US pharmaceutical behemoths make too much money in my opinion. The inability of Medicare to negotiate on drug pricing was an insane give away from…
W.r.t India, it has mostly accepted the patent obligations of US Pharma as it gets to export generic medications to US and I think 50% of Indian generic medications get through FDA approval. But this was pre-COVID, not sure how new found gold rush in Pharma industry worldwide would affect the future of Generic medications and patentability of pharma products. It could go either way of improving manufacturing and avai…
Re: Myths about Patents and Trademarks in startups
#27Patents are expenses that a startup should not spend. There are too few upsides. And if you need to defend yourself against a bigger player or patent troll, you are bancrupt anyways
Re: Myths about Patents and Trademarks in startups
#28> Besides, in most countries just incorporating/registering our startup as a company would prevent anyone else from using the same name for their company. So, the question is. Is it good/bad to incorporate using your product/service name as a corp. name? What are the pros and cons? (Because even if you do, your product will probably end up being called something else in the end)
I am personally aware (clients) of several times this has happened. Settlements to get your TM back start around $100,000.
Re: Myths about Patents and Trademarks in startups
#29If a tech company is successful, it will have patents. If they do not have enough, they will sprint to get more patents before exiting. Though, if a company waits until they get close to exiting before seeking patent protection, much of their interesting/valuable IP may barred from protection.
2) While expensive, patents are not that expensive considering the other costs of operating a startup. Passing on patents in the beginning means you will lose the right to protect your early inventions. Often this results in the loss of IP protection for your most important innovations -- the secret sauce that the company is based on. Trying to catch-up later is harder and more expensive because you have to patent around the edges of your secret-sauce because it is too late to patent the secret-sauce itself.
3) Plenty of so-called software patents are issued in the UK, EU, and Asia. You can search the EPO patent database for patents assigned to Google, et al. to find plenty.
4) PCTs are placeholders that defer (for 18-30 months) having to decide if you want to file in a covered country. They are cheap so we often recommend them to clients that intend to sell into UK/EU/JP. If you file in the US first and then use the same US application for the PCT there should be no legal fees for filing a PCT, just filing and administrative fees.
Note, non-US countries do not have a 1-year public disclosure grace-period. So if your inventions are disclosed to the public before filing your US patent application, forget about PCT applications.
5) Patent Attorneys. They are like any profession. At least half are average or worse. I think finding a good patent attorney is the hardest part of the patent journey.
A good patent attorney will have relevant industry experience and they will focus on specific/limited areas of technology.
Patent attorneys that are good at software or computer-based inventions will tend to work exclusively with those types of inventions. This is because there is a high demand and patents for software/computer inventions command high fees. Gadget patents typically have lower fees that really are not worth the time for a computer/software oriented patent attorney to handle.
Also, even big law firms with name-brands can have terrible patent attorneys. So the best way to find one is word of mouth from other CEOs/CTOs or your VCs.
6) Startups filing for patents in the US should be doing Track 1 (Prioritized Patent Examination). It guarantees that your that your patent will be examined within 12 months. It only costs $2070 more than normal filing fees for companies with less than 500 employees.
If your US patent attorney has not recommended Track 1 filing, you probably need a different patent attorney. Track 1 is a 'new' option, but it has been around for several years now. There is no reason not be filing Track 1 if you are a startup. If your attorneys argue against it, consider seeking new attorneys.
In three years you could have several issued patents instead of still waiting for your first response from the USPTO.
7) A good patent attorney only needs 1-2 hours of inventor time to draft a patent. If your patent attorneys are meeting multiple times with the inventors, especially to work on claims, you should look into finding better patent attorneys.
8) All good patent attorneys charge high fees, some bad/mediocre patent attorneys charge high fees. However, all low fee work is done by bad patent attorneys (or they are sub-contracting out to bad patent attorneys).
There is too much demand for good patent attorneys for them to charge low fees. Unfortunately, plenty of bad patent attorneys charge high fees too, especially if they are at bigger firms.
Re: Myths about Patents and Trademarks in startups
#30Patents are expenses that a startup should not spend. There are too few upsides. And if you need to defend yourself against a bigger player or patent troll, you are bancrupt anyways
Put IP protection in the budget just like any other cost-of-doing-business expense.