Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation” • Hacker News Board

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#21

Post by redis_mlc » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 9:15 AM UTC

NicoJuicy wrote: post #17

LatteLazy wrote: post #12

I find the fact talks fell through particularly concerning as right now we should all be presenting a united front against China. I also think they should call this a digital tax or apply it only to digital services. I understand that’s where the biggest impact will be felt but a minimum corporation tax rate shouldn’t depend on business type and I dislike the idea people are free to target companies for being “too su…

You are missing the point. Because of Trump, US allies have to guard more corners than before. It's a serious problem and I think Trump is actually giving Russia/China an unfair advantage. He has already destroyed the Asian partnerships against China that Obama started, he also got out of numerous Western partnerships because it wasn't his signature on it. I would say that the problem is not Europe, it's 100% Trump.…

This is not well-understood by the general public, but Trump's power as a statesman is his unpredictability.

If you don't know what or where he will be next, how do you counter him?

Reagan kept the Soviet Union off balance to the point of dissolving it. He's considered one of America's greatest statesman today, but called a clown by the elites at the time.

The CCP should be concerned about the same fate if they trifle with Trump. They have given every reason for him to isolate that country.

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#22

Post by mamon » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 9:17 AM UTC

paulsutter wrote: post #19

NicoJuicy wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are missing the point. Because of Trump, US allies have to guard more corners than before. It's a serious problem and I think Trump is actually giving Russia/China an unfair advantage. He has already destroyed the Asian partnerships against China that Obama started, he also got out of numerous Western partnerships because it wasn't his signature on it. I would say that the problem is not Europe, it's 100% Trump.…

Russia’s economy is smaller than Canada, they’re just not terribly relevant globally. China on the other hand will eclipse the US significantly both economically and militarily, reshaping the world.

Russian economy is weak, agreed, but militarily they are still the only significant threat to US global dominance. China's military is much weaker in comparison.

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#23

Post by Youden » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 9:21 AM UTC

LatteLazy wrote: post #12

I find the fact talks fell through particularly concerning as right now we should all be presenting a united front against China. I also think they should call this a digital tax or apply it only to digital services. I understand that’s where the biggest impact will be felt but a minimum corporation tax rate shouldn’t depend on business type and I dislike the idea people are free to target companies for being “too su…

> I find the fact talks fell through particularly concerning as right now we should all be presenting a united front against China.

Honest question: why? Why should Europe unite with the US against China?

I don't mean this as a challenge, I'm not trying to argue either way¸ I'm just curious about the reasoning behind your statement.

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#24

Post by Hamuko » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 9:22 AM UTC

smabie wrote: post #5

pjc50 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, it's necessary if corporations can operate internationally and transfer money untaxably between jurisdictions, otherwise the global effective tax rate is that of the lowest country.

What's wrong with that? Countries need to compete just like corporations. Small countries need someway to compete for global talent, and low taxes are a good incentive.

Apple has 137,000 employees of which 80,000 are in the United States and 22,000 are in Europe, and of those 6,000 in Ireland. However, 64% of Apple's sales are (or at least were in 2017) outside the US, which then get funneled to Ireland, despite only housing like 4.3% of Apple's global employees.

They're just shifting money, not talent. Money which is then taxed at a very low rate (Apple International had an effective corporate tax rate of 1% in 2003, which was shrunk down to 0.005% by 2014) and in return doesn't really benefit the people of that country.

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#25

Post by NicoJuicy » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 9:22 AM UTC

redis_mlc wrote: post #21

NicoJuicy wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are missing the point. Because of Trump, US allies have to guard more corners than before. It's a serious problem and I think Trump is actually giving Russia/China an unfair advantage. He has already destroyed the Asian partnerships against China that Obama started, he also got out of numerous Western partnerships because it wasn't his signature on it. I would say that the problem is not Europe, it's 100% Trump.…

This is not well-understood by the general public, but Trump's power as a statesman is his unpredictability. If you don't know what or where he will be next, how do you counter him? Reagan kept the Soviet Union off balance to the point of dissolving it. He's considered one of America's greatest statesman today, but called a clown by the elites at the time. The CCP should be concerned about the same fate if they trifl…

> Trump's power as a statesman is his unpredictability.

Please don't mistake unpredictability to untrustworthy, ego-centrism and self gain driven behaviour. The guy clearly lacks any social decency that toddlers even know.

Reagan did this only as a strategy to USSR, but Trump is clearly influenced by self-gain and ego-centric. He is very predictable, if you use that as a variable.

Reagan also supported anti-communism countries and saw the strength in allies. Trump stands alone, every where he goes and doesn't have the brain capacity to lead a country.

I think you haven't been paying attention the last months. The US has never been this divided, Trump resembles a con-man/lunatic a lot more.

Ps. A divided nation is a weak one.

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#26

Post by fxtentacle » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 9:22 AM UTC

redis_mlc wrote: post #21

NicoJuicy wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are missing the point. Because of Trump, US allies have to guard more corners than before. It's a serious problem and I think Trump is actually giving Russia/China an unfair advantage. He has already destroyed the Asian partnerships against China that Obama started, he also got out of numerous Western partnerships because it wasn't his signature on it. I would say that the problem is not Europe, it's 100% Trump.…

This is not well-understood by the general public, but Trump's power as a statesman is his unpredictability. If you don't know what or where he will be next, how do you counter him? Reagan kept the Soviet Union off balance to the point of dissolving it. He's considered one of America's greatest statesman today, but called a clown by the elites at the time. The CCP should be concerned about the same fate if they trifl…

Merkel did an excellent job at countering him. Or at least, she earned a lot of respect with voters and other European politicians for it.

Basically, she was just presenting it as if she's babysitting a naughty kid.

So the way to counter Trump is to make obvious the irrelevance of what he's saying or tweeting at any given moment, because he might change his opinion an hour later.

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#27

Post by paulsutter » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 9:22 AM UTC

mamon wrote: post #22

paulsutter wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia’s economy is smaller than Canada, they’re just not terribly relevant globally. China on the other hand will eclipse the US significantly both economically and militarily, reshaping the world.

Russian economy is weak, agreed, but militarily they are still the only significant threat to US global dominance. China's military is much weaker in comparison.

China is a vastly bigger consideration. If China decides to invade Taiwan the US could lose access to most semiconductors. China’s military is developing rapidly.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/united-states/2020-0...

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#28

Post by boudin » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 9:22 AM UTC

LatteLazy wrote: post #12

I find the fact talks fell through particularly concerning as right now we should all be presenting a united front against China. I also think they should call this a digital tax or apply it only to digital services. I understand that’s where the biggest impact will be felt but a minimum corporation tax rate shouldn’t depend on business type and I dislike the idea people are free to target companies for being “too su…

There is already different tax regimes based on business type, it's not something new. I personally think it's a good idea. Our current tax regime has not been thought for this kind of business. Businesses like Google are something totally new, trying to apply the current tax system on it just doesn't work. I find it perfectly logical to create a new tax system that is a better fit, will stop this cat and mouse game of optimisation and finally have those companies contributing to the country they operate into the same way other conpanies does.

After, i'm not an expert so I can't say that the system pushed by EU is the best idea or not.

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#29

Post by boudin » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 9:24 AM UTC

Youden wrote: post #23

LatteLazy wrote: post #12

I find the fact talks fell through particularly concerning as right now we should all be presenting a united front against China. I also think they should call this a digital tax or apply it only to digital services. I understand that’s where the biggest impact will be felt but a minimum corporation tax rate shouldn’t depend on business type and I dislike the idea people are free to target companies for being “too su…

> I find the fact talks fell through particularly concerning as right now we should all be presenting a united front against China. Honest question: why? Why should Europe unite with the US against China? I don't mean this as a challenge, I'm not trying to argue either way¸ I'm just curious about the reasoning behind your statement.

I'm with you, i don't get this neither.

Re: Europeans vow to pursue digital tax plans after US “provocation”

#30

Post by noir-york » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 9:27 AM UTC

Youden wrote: post #23

LatteLazy wrote: post #12

I find the fact talks fell through particularly concerning as right now we should all be presenting a united front against China. I also think they should call this a digital tax or apply it only to digital services. I understand that’s where the biggest impact will be felt but a minimum corporation tax rate shouldn’t depend on business type and I dislike the idea people are free to target companies for being “too su…

> I find the fact talks fell through particularly concerning as right now we should all be presenting a united front against China. Honest question: why? Why should Europe unite with the US against China? I don't mean this as a challenge, I'm not trying to argue either way¸ I'm just curious about the reasoning behind your statement.

Because China is threatening the global order on which peace and prosperity lies, starting with the freedom of the seas.

China is already harassing and sinking fishing vessels and trying to close the South China Sea. It may soon try to enforce an ADIZ over the SC Sea as well. Not great.

China is a growing aggressive power with cyber attacks across a multitude of countries and is running, like Russia, disinformation campaigns to undermine democracy.

It is in the interest of EU and the US, and indeed many countries, to have a rules-based international order. It is increasingly in the interests of the US as its power is in relative decline.