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Want to Solve Venture Capital's Diversity Problem? Start with Pension Funds

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Re: Want to Solve Venture Capital's Diversity Problem? Start with Pension Funds

#21

Post by ryanobjc »

tuna-piano wrote: post #9

What person from an underrepresented group wants to be chosen just because of their group status? Isn't that highly patronizing for someone who likely had worked hard to get to where they got? Do you want to be "pretty great for a xxxxx person!" or just "one of the best". Is this a lesson that people want their kids to learn? Doesn't this also lead discrimination actually being a rational (and maybe ethical) thing to…

This analogy is weak for a few reasons, first off companies are not doctors and with diversification no one is at risk of death.

Secondly, expanding the pool of available investments with an eye towards attempting to correct systematic injustice doesn’t need to accompany a loss of quality, which is what is argued here. If the pool of quality candidates is large, then having a diversity goal in an investment fund doesn’t necessarily lead to lower quality.

After all, can you honestly say that all the worthy startups and teams are getting investment now?

As a side note, if the diversity argument lowering quality is “correct”, then why wouldn’t any investment hypothesis also lead to lower quality? There are tons of vc firms that only invest in certain types of companies. They still manage to keep quality high while being discerning about who they invest in. Think funds that only do bio or only do social media.

Instead of coming up with reasons why status quo is totally fine or why giving money to black entrepreneurs is going to cause losses, perhaps we could imagine a world where such investment thesis are successful, and expand the total success of everyone?

Re: Want to Solve Venture Capital's Diversity Problem? Start with Pension Funds

#22

Post by tmpz22 »

tuna-piano wrote: post #9

What person from an underrepresented group wants to be chosen just because of their group status? Isn't that highly patronizing for someone who likely had worked hard to get to where they got? Do you want to be "pretty great for a xxxxx person!" or just "one of the best". Is this a lesson that people want their kids to learn? Doesn't this also lead discrimination actually being a rational (and maybe ethical) thing to…

I remember several comments in the Iowa Caucus app debacle threads calling out the ex-googler who led the project as an affirmative action hire. Irregardless of morality or righteousness the more affirmative action permeates our culture the more resentment is going to build up in groups that feel cheated by such a system.

Re: Want to Solve Venture Capital's Diversity Problem? Start with Pension Funds

#23

Post by tuna-piano »

For those who don't read the article, here's a quote: "Unless you're only selling to white people, if I was at a firm I would want every point of view represented in the investment process"

Is this how people view the world these days? Where skin color is important?

I feel like I'm totally lost and saddened by this new race-focused world. Can someone please tell me when I can go back to caring about the quality of air traffic controller's[1], the quality of a manager's returns[2], and a restaurant's food[3] and NOT their skin color? I'm exhausted by it.

[1]https://www.fullwsj.com/articles/affirmative-action-lands-in...

[2]The article from this discussion

[3]https://www.forbes.com/sites/korihale/2020/06/09/uber-eats-d...

Re: Want to Solve Venture Capital's Diversity Problem? Start with Pension Funds

#24

Post by karpierz »

tmpz22 wrote: post #22
tuna-piano wrote: post #9

What person from an underrepresented group wants to be chosen just because of their group status? Isn't that highly patronizing for someone who likely had worked hard to get to where they got? Do you want to be "pretty great for a xxxxx person!" or just "one of the best". Is this a lesson that people want their kids to learn? Doesn't this also lead discrimination actually being a rational (and maybe ethical) thing to…

I remember several comments in the Iowa Caucus app debacle threads calling out the ex-googler who led the project as an affirmative action hire. Irregardless of morality or righteousness the more affirmative action permeates our culture the more resentment is going to build up in groups that feel cheated by such a system.

> like it or not it is not a natural human sentiment to stop and go "well one hundred years ago my great grandfather benefited unfairly...".

It's not a hundred years ago, it's this year, right now.

And I think if you're going to bend to "natural human sentiment", then you might as well give up on trying to get people to change at all. Why try to get people to exercise or learn if "natural human sentiment" is to sit on the couch and watch TV?

Re: Want to Solve Venture Capital's Diversity Problem? Start with Pension Funds

#25

Post by oconnor663 »

tuna-piano wrote: post #9

What person from an underrepresented group wants to be chosen just because of their group status? Isn't that highly patronizing for someone who likely had worked hard to get to where they got? Do you want to be "pretty great for a xxxxx person!" or just "one of the best". Is this a lesson that people want their kids to learn? Doesn't this also lead discrimination actually being a rational (and maybe ethical) thing to…

I agree (and I hope most people could agree) that this downside exists. I think the harder question is how to weigh this downside against the upsides of better representation. For example, of course it's also bad for kids to learn that "xxxxx people can't be doctors." Affirmative action comes in lots of different forms, and I think there's room to optimize for more than one problem at the same time.

Re: Want to Solve Venture Capital's Diversity Problem? Start with Pension Funds

#26

Post by mullingitover »

mullingitover wrote: post #18
TheGrim999 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you haven't noticed, that's been the goal for a long time now. People get accepted to college because of the color of their skin. People get better SAT scores now because of the color of their skin. Every major company has diversity boards which make sure to hire people based in the color of their skin. Hollywood and big business choose who to be in ads, movies, and other customer facing media because of the color…

> It's really so interesting that these groups of politically motivated people think they're ending what they perceive as racism ... by being as racist as it's possible to be. The existing system is already very biased against them, I don't have a problem with some corrective action. "In fact, companies are more than twice as likely to call minority applicants for interviews if they submit whitened resumes than candi…

More evidence of systemic bias in hiring practices:

"This paper suggests that African-Americans face differential treatment when searching for jobs and this may still be a factor in why they do poorly in the labor market. Job applicants with African-American names get far fewer callbacks for each resume they send out. Equally importantly, applicants with African-American names find it hard to overcome this hurdle in callbacks by improving their observable skills or credentials."

https://cos.gatech.edu/facultyres/Diversity_Studies/Bertrand...

Re: Want to Solve Venture Capital's Diversity Problem? Start with Pension Funds

#27

Post by blululu »

tuna-piano wrote: post #9

What person from an underrepresented group wants to be chosen just because of their group status? Isn't that highly patronizing for someone who likely had worked hard to get to where they got? Do you want to be "pretty great for a xxxxx person!" or just "one of the best". Is this a lesson that people want their kids to learn? Doesn't this also lead discrimination actually being a rational (and maybe ethical) thing to…

>>What person from an underrepresented group wants to be chosen just because of their group status? Isn't that highly patronizing for someone who likely had worked hard to get to where they got? Do you want to be "pretty great for a xxxxx person!" or just "one of the best".

For comparison, consider the case of people who get their jobs via nepotism. The people who are hired for nepotism are seldom concerned with the fact that they were chosen because of who their parents were. In many cases these people are reasonably qualified and do just fine in spite of the fact that they were given the job because of their family's status.

When there is a preponderance of talent and success is hard to quantify precisely, choosing the best means choosing between a number of comparably good alternatives (to within the large uncertainty of the measurement). In certain cases there are very meritocratic scenarios where I think your statement holds, but when there is a surplus of talent for a role and quantifying success is very imprecise, I'm not sure if meritocracy makes sense. Given that many hedge funds are basically glorified ETFs that average to the market, I'm not if there is much difference between reasonably qualified candidates for these jobs.

Re: Want to Solve Venture Capital's Diversity Problem? Start with Pension Funds

#28

Post by bmcfeeley »

TheGrim999 wrote: post #19
amluto wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> by being as racist as it's possible to be. Even if someone were to hire someone else solely because of the color of their skin, this would be nowhere near as racist as it’s possible to be. Hint: people are being killed because of the color of their skin right now. People in the US used to buy people in large numbers because of the color of their skin.

I know this will be hard to accept, but no matter how many people tell me that minorities are being killed because of the color of their skin, I've noticed that not a single one of these people ever include any facts or data to back up that claim. Sure, black people are killed by police. So are white people. So are people of every race. All the actual data I've seen is that black people are killed less frequently, in…

You've brought exactly as many sources to bear in this conversation as the parent you've replied to, which is to say, none. When admonishing others for their lack of sources and making a counterclaim, you may want to consider providing the source yourself.

As for sources of evidence suggesting disproportionate use of force against black persons, here's one to consider:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/

Victims of fatal shootings by police were majority white, but disproportionately black. Additionally, black individuals were unarmed when fatally shot more frequently than white persons.

Re: Want to Solve Venture Capital's Diversity Problem? Start with Pension Funds

#29

Post by john_moscow »

mullingitover wrote: post #18
TheGrim999 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you haven't noticed, that's been the goal for a long time now. People get accepted to college because of the color of their skin. People get better SAT scores now because of the color of their skin. Every major company has diversity boards which make sure to hire people based in the color of their skin. Hollywood and big business choose who to be in ads, movies, and other customer facing media because of the color…

> It's really so interesting that these groups of politically motivated people think they're ending what they perceive as racism ... by being as racist as it's possible to be. The existing system is already very biased against them, I don't have a problem with some corrective action. "In fact, companies are more than twice as likely to call minority applicants for interviews if they submit whitened resumes than candi…

I would actually blame the corrective action for it. Companies are not personal, they are purely about managing business and risks. When you hire a person, you care for 2 things:

1. How likely will they perform their duties in a way that is profitable to the company?

2. How much will it cost to the company to fire them, if they turn out to generate loss.

Some people may have a stereotype that people of certain backgrounds would perform worse than people of other backgrounds, so that would affect heir judgement at point 1. However, if we make special rules that make it harder to fire underperformers from certain backgrounds, it greatly increases the costs at point 2, making them actually much less favorable candidates.

So in the current political climate, companies at the same time are forced to:

1. Claim that they will prefer diverse candidates and have diversity policies.

2. Actually avoid diverse candidates, because in case they underperform, laying them off would be considerably more expensive due to PR issues.

The study very much confirms this behavior, and I bet that making more special rules will only make it worse.

Re: Want to Solve Venture Capital's Diversity Problem? Start with Pension Funds

#30

Post by sbierwagen »

tuna-piano wrote: post #9

What person from an underrepresented group wants to be chosen just because of their group status? Isn't that highly patronizing for someone who likely had worked hard to get to where they got? Do you want to be "pretty great for a xxxxx person!" or just "one of the best". Is this a lesson that people want their kids to learn? Doesn't this also lead discrimination actually being a rational (and maybe ethical) thing to…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Thomas

>Thomas has recollected that his Yale Juris Doctor degree was not taken seriously by law firms to which he applied after graduating. He said that potential employers assumed he obtained it because of affirmative action policies.[18] In 1969 Dean Louis Pollak wrote that the law school was expanding its program of quotas for black applicants, with up to 24 entering that year admitted under a system that deemphasized grades and LSAT scores.[19] According to Thomas, he was "asked pointed questions, unsubtly suggesting that they doubted I was as smart as my grades indicated."[20] He further reflected:

> ⠀⠀ "I peeled a fifteen-cent sticker off a package of cigars and stuck it on the frame of my law degree to remind myself of the mistake I'd made by going to Yale. I never did change my mind about its value."[21]

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