Elon Musk calls for breakup of Amazon • Hacker News Board

Re: Elon Musk calls for breakup of Amazon

#21

Post by logicprog » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 8:48 PM UTC

nix23 wrote: post #18

enitihas wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what sector is Amazon a monopoly?

Shopping, Data-centers, Live-Streaming, Audio-book's and E-books maybe even logistics. Edit: Hey Jeff please stop down-voting me, you know it's the truth ;)

Quoting a comment from upstream in response to this:

> In what sector is Amazon a monopoly. Retail? Walmart is much larger and Amazon's share of the market is too small to be a monopoly. Ecommerce? Even in ecommerce, Amazon's share is So let's summarize: Amazon isn't a monopoly in "shopping" in any sense; there are other companies that run datacenters; since when does Amazon do live streaming? (and even if it does there are a million other apps/websites more people use for that); they don't have a monopoly in audiobooks; and they CERTAINLY don't have a monopoly in ebooks.

Just because they're a big noticeable name doesn't make them a monopoly. I'd downvote you if you could, and my name isn't Jeff.

Re: Elon Musk calls for breakup of Amazon

#22

Post by ngokevin » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 8:48 PM UTC

enitihas wrote: post #14

In what sector is Amazon a monopoly. Retail? Walmart is much larger and Amazon's share of the market is too small to be a monopoly. Ecommerce? Even in ecommerce, Amazon's share is https://electrek.co/2020/02/04/tesla-electric-car-sales-us-m... ). Does that mean Tesla is a monopoly, and should be broken up?

One issue is they run a marketplace platform where they also sell and push their own products on that platform. People sell products on the platform, Amazon gathers data, and eventually undercuts them out. They can exploit their 50% market share on top of control of the platform to make it almost impossible to compete in many product areas. Not a monopoly perhaps in the definition, but extremely suffocating.

Re: Elon Musk calls for breakup of Amazon

#23

Post by ksec » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 8:48 PM UTC

libertine wrote: post #19

enitihas wrote: post #14

In what sector is Amazon a monopoly. Retail? Walmart is much larger and Amazon's share of the market is too small to be a monopoly. Ecommerce? Even in ecommerce, Amazon's share is https://electrek.co/2020/02/04/tesla-electric-car-sales-us-m... ). Does that mean Tesla is a monopoly, and should be broken up?

Honestly this came to me after I've read your reply, and I think you're onto something: Is the 50% market share really necessary to claim who's a monopoly? Maybe it's time to re evaluate the definition of monopoly.

It is not a clear cut 50%, but it is about options. There are plenty of alternative for books, ebooks etc.

In a monopoly, a single seller controls or dominates the supply of goods and services.

The term you may be looking for is monopsony.

In a monopsony, a single buyer controls or dominates the demand for goods and services.

Re: Elon Musk calls for breakup of Amazon

#24

Post by enitihas » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 8:51 PM UTC

ngokevin wrote: post #22

enitihas wrote: post #14

In what sector is Amazon a monopoly. Retail? Walmart is much larger and Amazon's share of the market is too small to be a monopoly. Ecommerce? Even in ecommerce, Amazon's share is https://electrek.co/2020/02/04/tesla-electric-car-sales-us-m... ). Does that mean Tesla is a monopoly, and should be broken up?

One issue is they run a marketplace platform where they also sell and push their own products on that platform. People sell products on the platform, Amazon gathers data, and eventually undercuts them out. They can exploit their 50% market share on top of control of the platform to make it almost impossible to compete in many product areas. Not a monopoly perhaps in the definition, but extremely suffocating.

So like every other big retailer? Like Walmart, Costco and many others?

Re: Elon Musk calls for breakup of Amazon

#25

Post by logicprog » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 8:51 PM UTC

enitihas wrote: post #17

m0zg wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon is a monopoly on Kindle, which is what the author has issues with. It's sort of like if there was only one manufacturer of a printing press and they forbade you from printing anything they don't like on it. Also, every time a rebuttal starts with "so", the rest is an attempt at mind reading. Those are always unsuccessful.

> Amazon is a monopoly on Kindle, which is what the author has issues with. This makes no sense. Companies all have monopolies on their own products. Apple has monopoly on the iPad, which is a similar competing reading device. Sony has monopoly on the PlayStation. Microsoft has monopoly on Office and Xbox. Are you suggesting that all companies should give up the ownership of all of their products? There are several c…

Plus, Amazon actually doesn't have a monopoly on Kindle. All an author needs to do is render their book to a MOBI and then put it on their website for a paid download and have the downloaders use "send to kindle" through their phone or email. It's that simple, I do it all the time for free ebooks not published on Amazon.

Re: Elon Musk calls for breakup of Amazon

#26

Post by somethoughts » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 8:54 PM UTC

enitihas wrote: post #14

In what sector is Amazon a monopoly. Retail? Walmart is much larger and Amazon's share of the market is too small to be a monopoly. Ecommerce? Even in ecommerce, Amazon's share is https://electrek.co/2020/02/04/tesla-electric-car-sales-us-m... ). Does that mean Tesla is a monopoly, and should be broken up?

I think the most likely business unit that would be considered a monopoly is its IAAS business unit called AWS which has a very high profit margin. Ecommerce and E-books/books are probably the runner ups.

With those two business units, Amazon can then subsidize short term loss making business strategies and M&A that focus on gaining an eventually obtaining a monopoly advantage such as grocery, general brick and mortar retail, shipping and logistics, tablets, etc.

The other companies in technology focus on PAAS, self driving cars and VR, etc. and haven't used their profit margins to extend into the real world thus far.

Re: Elon Musk calls for breakup of Amazon

#27

Post by ksec » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 8:55 PM UTC

ngokevin wrote: post #22

enitihas wrote: post #14

In what sector is Amazon a monopoly. Retail? Walmart is much larger and Amazon's share of the market is too small to be a monopoly. Ecommerce? Even in ecommerce, Amazon's share is https://electrek.co/2020/02/04/tesla-electric-car-sales-us-m... ). Does that mean Tesla is a monopoly, and should be broken up?

One issue is they run a marketplace platform where they also sell and push their own products on that platform. People sell products on the platform, Amazon gathers data, and eventually undercuts them out. They can exploit their 50% market share on top of control of the platform to make it almost impossible to compete in many product areas. Not a monopoly perhaps in the definition, but extremely suffocating.

It is only in Silicon Valley and tech circle this manage to blow up as a big deal. When literally every single Retailer has been acting the same with their private labels for decades.

The game has been exactly the same whether it is online or offline. You are simply swapping form Nationwide Stores to Nationwide Logistics.

Re: Elon Musk calls for breakup of Amazon

#28

Post by libertine » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 8:55 PM UTC

enitihas wrote: post #20

libertine wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly this came to me after I've read your reply, and I think you're onto something: Is the 50% market share really necessary to claim who's a monopoly? Maybe it's time to re evaluate the definition of monopoly.

Sure, let's give politicians a stick to break businesses arbitrarily, since we don't like objective criterias. Got a problem with some CEO, cry monopoly and break it up.

I didn't say we shouldn't have criterias.

I said that the "50% market share" seems to have flaws. Why not look at market caps?

Well, the last monopoly was broken in 1982, isn't odd that since then no other monopoly has ever existed?

You currently have monopolies that serve political agendas, that's a better stick I guess.

Re: Elon Musk calls for breakup of Amazon

#29

Post by nix23 » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 8:55 PM UTC

logicprog wrote: post #21

nix23 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shopping, Data-centers, Live-Streaming, Audio-book's and E-books maybe even logistics. Edit: Hey Jeff please stop down-voting me, you know it's the truth ;)

Quoting a comment from upstream in response to this: > In what sector is Amazon a monopoly. Retail? Walmart is much larger and Amazon's share of the market is too small to be a monopoly. Ecommerce? Even in ecommerce, Amazon's share is So let's summarize: Amazon isn't a monopoly in "shopping" in any sense; there are other companies that run datacenters; since when does Amazon do live streaming? (and even if it does th…

1: Waltmart is just us, amazon is global (try to think about that the world is bigger then just the us please)

2: Livestreaming - Twitch, with you're arguments google is not a monopoly (there are other search-engines) and no, livestreaming to millions is not something 1000 other apps can do...know why...datacenters

3: Audible probably 90% market-share

4: Ebooks of course they are the biggest seller of ebooks in combination with kindle's

5: Yes there are other's but the only competitor is Azure and google..that's maybe the only point where you are right

Re: Elon Musk calls for breakup of Amazon

#30

Post by enitihas » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 9:02 PM UTC

libertine wrote: post #28

enitihas wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, let's give politicians a stick to break businesses arbitrarily, since we don't like objective criterias. Got a problem with some CEO, cry monopoly and break it up.

I didn't say we shouldn't have criterias. I said that the "50% market share" seems to have flaws. Why not look at market caps? Well, the last monopoly was broken in 1982, isn't odd that since then no other monopoly has ever existed? You currently have monopolies that serve political agendas, that's a better stick I guess.

What does monopoly have to do with market cap? Market cap is an abstract concept on how much the market values something, and doesn't have much concrete stuff to be based on. Market cap goes way up during bubbles. If companies were to be broken for profits, there are so many companies ahead of Amazon.

>Well, the last monopoly was broken in 1982, isn't odd that since then no other monopoly has ever existed?

Many monopolies have existed, like Microsoft for the most famous example. But there is no industry in which Amazon is a monopoly. Unless we were playing a witch hunt where we had to create a monopoly by thin air, I don't know what makes Amazon qualify as one.