Practicing empathy can teach us the value of diversity and inclusion in tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Practicing empathy can teach us the value of diversity and inclusion in tech

#21

Post by mcarda_indigoag » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 6:36 PM UTC

scohesc wrote: post #17

acconrad wrote: post #2

One way you can improve diversity in your workforce is to actively seek out underrepresented communities when you are hiring. You can't control who is applying to your job postings, but you can control who you reach out to to fill those positions. If you can find people who don't fit the white male programmer mold and let them know about the jobs you have available, you're making the choice to prioritize diversity an…

What is it with hiring solely to achieve diversity standards instead of hiring for who is actually qualified the most for the job?

Do you believe there that the idea of finding "the most qualified candidate" is a realistic expectation? Hiring is a highly subjective and qualitative process with a very slow, weak feedback loop.

How does your company iterate on the criteria used to find the "most qualified" candidate, especially without some way to compare the theoretical performance of the candidates you turned down to the real performance of the one you hired?

Re: Practicing empathy can teach us the value of diversity and inclusion in tech

#22

Post by mcarda_indigoag » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 6:48 PM UTC

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #13

acconrad wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at meetups, social groups, conferences that serve underrepresented communities (both locally and nationally). You should be looking because diversity of experience and opinion helps you build a more well-rounded product that your users can empathize with. Alternative and comprehensive perspectives will only help your group thrive and expand their reach as well as build a sense of community and culture on your te…

While I disagree with @collyw, what you're proposing is based on purely touchy-feely claims. BTW I don't 'empathize' with products, I use them. They're tools, no more.

There is a great deal of evidence around algorithms exhibiting bias, which can harm consumers. Here's one example of facial recognition algorithms: https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2019/NIST.IR.8280.pdf

Users may not consciously "empathize" with products, but they will be discouraged from using them when their experience using them is sub-optimal.

Re: Practicing empathy can teach us the value of diversity and inclusion in tech

#23

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 7:56 PM UTC

acconrad wrote: post #2

One way you can improve diversity in your workforce is to actively seek out underrepresented communities when you are hiring. You can't control who is applying to your job postings, but you can control who you reach out to to fill those positions. If you can find people who don't fit the white male programmer mold and let them know about the jobs you have available, you're making the choice to prioritize diversity an…

[deleted]

Re: Practicing empathy can teach us the value of diversity and inclusion in tech

#24

Post by ikeyany » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 7:58 PM UTC

scohesc wrote: post #17

acconrad wrote: post #2

One way you can improve diversity in your workforce is to actively seek out underrepresented communities when you are hiring. You can't control who is applying to your job postings, but you can control who you reach out to to fill those positions. If you can find people who don't fit the white male programmer mold and let them know about the jobs you have available, you're making the choice to prioritize diversity an…

What is it with hiring solely to achieve diversity standards instead of hiring for who is actually qualified the most for the job?

Looking through non-traditional channels for talent does not mean you are lowering your standards.

Claiming that standards are being lowered without any evidence is actually super racist.

Re: Practicing empathy can teach us the value of diversity and inclusion in tech

#25

Post by gurumeditations » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 9:35 PM UTC

scohesc wrote: post #17

acconrad wrote: post #2

One way you can improve diversity in your workforce is to actively seek out underrepresented communities when you are hiring. You can't control who is applying to your job postings, but you can control who you reach out to to fill those positions. If you can find people who don't fit the white male programmer mold and let them know about the jobs you have available, you're making the choice to prioritize diversity an…

What is it with hiring solely to achieve diversity standards instead of hiring for who is actually qualified the most for the job?

There is almost always more than one highly qualified candidate.

Re: Practicing empathy can teach us the value of diversity and inclusion in tech

#26

Post by MyHypatia » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 1:08 AM UTC

mcarda_indigoag wrote: post #20

babycake wrote: post #5

No, it really can't and everyone needs to stop pushing this corporate narrative. This is another one of those feel-good gestures that doesn't really result in any real progress. Can you imagine the next time the topic of gender or bamboo ceiling pay comes up, we can just hug it out... right? No. Real laws need to be enacted to enforce good social policies, with real consequences to bear for those who break it. Even m…

Hi, I'm the author of the post. Thanks for reading and for the honest criticism. Do you agree that convincing more people in the tech industry to genuinely understand the inequality that exists, and the value of inclusive practices, is a prerequisite to achieving the impactful policies you cited? How do we get laws enacted or create a successful tech union while the white and male majorities in tech continue to feel…

I enjoyed your thoughtful post. Teams and companies are made up individuals. Individual actions matter, and I do think if more people tried: listening with a mindset of learning instead of arguing, trying to make sure that people can finish a sentence, and generally keeping a positive, fair, respectful atmosphere, that would do a lot more than the emotionally distant approaches.

Re: Practicing empathy can teach us the value of diversity and inclusion in tech

#27

Post by WalterSear » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 1:20 AM UTC

heromal wrote: post #15

acconrad wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at meetups, social groups, conferences that serve underrepresented communities (both locally and nationally). You should be looking because diversity of experience and opinion helps you build a more well-rounded product that your users can empathize with. Alternative and comprehensive perspectives will only help your group thrive and expand their reach as well as build a sense of community and culture on your te…

>You should be looking because diversity of experience and opinion helps you build a more well-rounded product that your users can empathize with. When I use HN I don't wonder if the person that added the "reply" button is black or not... I don't really understand this. (I am black)

IMHO, it's corporate milquetoast: people can't actually tell their bosses 'because we want to be decent people' so these mantras became a way to tie inclusionism to the bottom line, thereby making it fiscally acceptable.

AFAIK, there is precious little actual research pointing either way. No doubt it's an extremely nebulous subject to study. Groupthink is certainly a thing, but I haven't seen strong evidence linking diversity hiring to the particular outcomes it is claims to treat.

Re: Practicing empathy can teach us the value of diversity and inclusion in tech

#28

Post by collyw » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 8:01 AM UTC

maximente wrote: post #14

collyw wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5 years is considered long now? And no we weren't looking for an under-represented group at all. We just posted our job ads in the most obvious places when looking for a candidate. Personally I think we should be hiring on merit rather than any other factors.

> Personally I think we should be hiring on merit rather than any other factors. if by merit you mean competency in coding, and by years of experience you effectively mean years in coding, what you have stated here is directly in conflict with your requirements of 5 years of experience. nothing personal: them's the breaks. admittedly, i get what you're trying to do - filter out bad candidates cheaply - but one ought…

True, but its unlikely to find outstanding bootcamp graduates. A lot of what we are looking for isn't ability hackerrank type challenges, but a more mature person capable of other aspects of the product lifestyle as well as just coding. But as you say it is a quick and easy filter for assumed ability. It didn't stop many people applying, though looking at their resumes in more detail did.

We already got lots of very poor candidates. I doubt removing the filters that we did have would have improved things.

Re: Practicing empathy can teach us the value of diversity and inclusion in tech

#29

Post by collyw » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 8:01 AM UTC

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #12

collyw wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5 years is considered long now? And no we weren't looking for an under-represented group at all. We just posted our job ads in the most obvious places when looking for a candidate. Personally I think we should be hiring on merit rather than any other factors.

Damn right 5 years is a long time. A very long time. If a competent programmer in language L in domain D can't transfer to another language L2 and domain D2 in half a decade then they aren't fit to employ at all. Curious: what are you doing that you think 5 years' experience is necessary?

Why do you think its only about language ability and coding?

Re: Practicing empathy can teach us the value of diversity and inclusion in tech

#30

Post by collyw » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 8:13 AM UTC

acconrad wrote: post #11

collyw wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We got lots of underqualified candidates and the few that did have anything more than a couple of years experience were all male. Where should we have been looking for more "under represented" candidates? And why should we be looking for under-represent candidates?

Look at meetups, social groups, conferences that serve underrepresented communities (both locally and nationally). You should be looking because diversity of experience and opinion helps you build a more well-rounded product that your users can empathize with. Alternative and comprehensive perspectives will only help your group thrive and expand their reach as well as build a sense of community and culture on your te…

The meetup groups I have been to have been just as much of a sausage party as any companies I worked for.

Why do you need different skin colour or a vagina to have an alternative perspective? Do I think the same as all other white guys? Or do my blue eyes give me some unique insight that brown eyes (which are uncommon in this country) don't?