List of companies going full remote after Covid • Hacker News Board

Re: List of companies going full remote after Covid

#21

Post by xoxoy » Fri, May 22, 2020, 1:19 AM UTC

avalys wrote: post #18

xoxoy wrote: post #14

If you want to remain an IC then remote is probably the best option, but if you want to climb up into a leadership role I don’t really see how you get there in a remote role. Also Facebook’s admission that salary will be tied to cost of living wherever you choose to live sets a bad precedent. Anyone who thought they could just keep their Bay Area salary is going to be disappointed, and it gives cover to every other c…

I don’t get why the pay adjustment is so controversial. Facebook (and Google, and Apple, etc.) already have offices throughout the world, and they already set pay based on the local market and cost of living. Not sure why “remote work” independent of an office should be any different, or why this is surprising?

It’s different when you’re already hired at one salary level and then forced to take a cost of living pay cut based on some fuzzy cost of living calculator.

I rarely find publicly available cost of living calcs to accurately reflect lived cost of living.

Re: List of companies going full remote after Covid

#22

Post by hobos_delight » Fri, May 22, 2020, 1:21 AM UTC

avalys wrote: post #18

xoxoy wrote: post #14

If you want to remain an IC then remote is probably the best option, but if you want to climb up into a leadership role I don’t really see how you get there in a remote role. Also Facebook’s admission that salary will be tied to cost of living wherever you choose to live sets a bad precedent. Anyone who thought they could just keep their Bay Area salary is going to be disappointed, and it gives cover to every other c…

I don’t get why the pay adjustment is so controversial. Facebook (and Google, and Apple, etc.) already have offices throughout the world, and they already set pay based on the local market and cost of living. Not sure why “remote work” independent of an office should be any different, or why this is surprising?

Google sets pay on local market rate only, not cost of living - they're very specific about this. And generally, the local market rate tends to lag the CoL increases,

Re: List of companies going full remote after Covid

#23

Post by acwan93 » Fri, May 22, 2020, 1:24 AM UTC

xoxoy wrote: post #14

If you want to remain an IC then remote is probably the best option, but if you want to climb up into a leadership role I don’t really see how you get there in a remote role. Also Facebook’s admission that salary will be tied to cost of living wherever you choose to live sets a bad precedent. Anyone who thought they could just keep their Bay Area salary is going to be disappointed, and it gives cover to every other c…

Back when I was looking at SV companies they had several satellite offices, but the perception at the time was that if you wanted to climb the ladder you had to be at HQ. That would be Mountain View, Cupertino, etc.

It feels like that wouldn’t change even after COVID-19. Partial remote work is definitely coming and I hope it’s permanent, but needing to be at HQ on a semi-regular basis doesn’t seem like it would go away. It’s also probably why the LA-SF airline routes will probably bounce back rather quickly.

Re: List of companies going full remote after Covid

#24

Post by volandkit » Fri, May 22, 2020, 1:27 AM UTC

xoxoy wrote: post #21

avalys wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t get why the pay adjustment is so controversial. Facebook (and Google, and Apple, etc.) already have offices throughout the world, and they already set pay based on the local market and cost of living. Not sure why “remote work” independent of an office should be any different, or why this is surprising?

It’s different when you’re already hired at one salary level and then forced to take a cost of living pay cut based on some fuzzy cost of living calculator. I rarely find publicly available cost of living calcs to accurately reflect lived cost of living.

You will get a pay cut if you relocate from one office to another today, e.g. moving from New York to Huntsville, Alabama will result in significant decrease in salary.

Re: List of companies going full remote after Covid

#25

Post by throwaway4715 » Fri, May 22, 2020, 1:27 AM UTC

xoxoy wrote: post #14

If you want to remain an IC then remote is probably the best option, but if you want to climb up into a leadership role I don’t really see how you get there in a remote role. Also Facebook’s admission that salary will be tied to cost of living wherever you choose to live sets a bad precedent. Anyone who thought they could just keep their Bay Area salary is going to be disappointed, and it gives cover to every other c…

As far as I know, ALL big tech cos have paid differently based on where you live since forever. If you work for Google Pittsburgh you make less than Seattle/Bay/NYC, if you work for London office you make less than American hubs. I don't know why people are surprised that that applies to remote workers as well.

Re: List of companies going full remote after Covid

#26

Post by gregmac » Fri, May 22, 2020, 1:31 AM UTC

dtrailin wrote: post #6

I don't think any of these companies are going "full remote". It seems like the strategy is more like, remote if you want it but there is still an office.

I think the likely outcome is going to simply be more mix of remote and onsite in the future. Any company that makes it through this is going to realize remote works fine. I'm sure there will be some companies that will still insist onsite-only, and they'll lose a bunch of employees who just realized they prefer remote.

Regardless, what I really hope is that at the least this helps companies shift towards more remote-friendly culture and policies. Things like: every meeting has a conference link; one person remote, everyone remote; more async communications and decision making. If you do sit in a room together, have some empathy for remote people, and make sure you have high-quality video and audio, no tapping on the table or "side-conversations" while hovering over a mic, and make sure you have remote videos feeds visible and are sharing the screen you're discussing.

It would be great to see a list like this amended to include how this type of thing is handled at the company as a whole (eg top-down, global policy as opposed to varying by individual teams/managers) - like a "remote-friendly" ranking scale, or maybe a "Joel test".

Re: List of companies going full remote after Covid

#27

Post by xoxoy » Fri, May 22, 2020, 1:43 AM UTC

throwaway4715 wrote: post #25

xoxoy wrote: post #14

If you want to remain an IC then remote is probably the best option, but if you want to climb up into a leadership role I don’t really see how you get there in a remote role. Also Facebook’s admission that salary will be tied to cost of living wherever you choose to live sets a bad precedent. Anyone who thought they could just keep their Bay Area salary is going to be disappointed, and it gives cover to every other c…

As far as I know, ALL big tech cos have paid differently based on where you live since forever. If you work for Google Pittsburgh you make less than Seattle/Bay/NYC, if you work for London office you make less than American hubs. I don't know why people are surprised that that applies to remote workers as well.

Published Cost of living calculators rarely reflect reality in my experience. I definitely don’t pay anything close to the average cost of living for a single person in San Francisco, for example.

Hard to tell whether you are getting a “fair” deal when cost of living is so different depending on your individual situation

Re: List of companies going full remote after Covid

#28

Post by waheoo » Fri, May 22, 2020, 1:45 AM UTC

throwaway4715 wrote: post #25

xoxoy wrote: post #14

If you want to remain an IC then remote is probably the best option, but if you want to climb up into a leadership role I don’t really see how you get there in a remote role. Also Facebook’s admission that salary will be tied to cost of living wherever you choose to live sets a bad precedent. Anyone who thought they could just keep their Bay Area salary is going to be disappointed, and it gives cover to every other c…

As far as I know, ALL big tech cos have paid differently based on where you live since forever. If you work for Google Pittsburgh you make less than Seattle/Bay/NYC, if you work for London office you make less than American hubs. I don't know why people are surprised that that applies to remote workers as well.

Isnt it pretty obvious? People are under the illusion they are paid for the work they do.

They are not and never have been. They have always been paid what someone is willing to pay them for the work they do.

It's subtle but important distinction.

Salary is a function of demand and supply like any other price on an open market.

This is why its important to not think in terms of work when negotiating a salary. Instead you need to think in terms of cost to find someone to take your place.

If that cost is more than your salary, you can ask for more.

Re: List of companies going full remote after Covid

#29

Post by fma » Fri, May 22, 2020, 1:51 AM UTC

xoxoy wrote: post #21

avalys wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t get why the pay adjustment is so controversial. Facebook (and Google, and Apple, etc.) already have offices throughout the world, and they already set pay based on the local market and cost of living. Not sure why “remote work” independent of an office should be any different, or why this is surprising?

It’s different when you’re already hired at one salary level and then forced to take a cost of living pay cut based on some fuzzy cost of living calculator. I rarely find publicly available cost of living calcs to accurately reflect lived cost of living.

Forced? If you want the same salary than stay where you are.

Re: List of companies going full remote after Covid

#30

Post by CyanLite2 » Fri, May 22, 2020, 1:57 AM UTC

volandkit wrote: post #24

xoxoy wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s different when you’re already hired at one salary level and then forced to take a cost of living pay cut based on some fuzzy cost of living calculator. I rarely find publicly available cost of living calcs to accurately reflect lived cost of living.

You will get a pay cut if you relocate from one office to another today, e.g. moving from New York to Huntsville, Alabama will result in significant decrease in salary.

Correct, but I'm still pretty sure that $BigTechCompany pay is still pretty darn good for the area and the work is probably more interesting too. At the end of the day, $200k in Alabama for an experienced developer is still a fraction of the cost for the same experienced dev onsite in Menlo Park.