Sanger has some really great ideas, apparently. From his linked ballotpedia article on neutrality: > "A disputed topic is treated neutrally if each viewpoint about it is not asserted but rather presented (1) as sympathetically as possible, bearing in mind that other, competing views must be represented as well, and (2) with an equitable amount of space being allotted to each, whatever that might be." Because, yes, we…
> Because, yes, we should definitely give as much space to viewpoints that the earth is flat as to those that say the earth is round. As long as scientific sources are referenced and the criticisms are acknowledged, what's the problem with having a flat earth Wikipedia article?
The Biases of Wikipedia and Moderators Today
21–30 of 34 posts
Re: The Biases of Wikipedia and Moderators Today
#22This article is insane right-wing propaganda, and if it were written by any other person, would not be appropriate for Hacker News. The only reason it makes sense here is that the fact that the author believes this nonsense is noteworthy (and alarming). "Neutral" does not mean "every opinion is taken seriously." The opinions that this article claims that Wikipedia is "biased" against are obviously and factually false…
The point is that it's not for Wikipedia to say that a person lies. Instead, it needs to point to specific factual instances and quote experts when bringing the idea together.
Re: The Biases of Wikipedia and Moderators Today
#23Larry Sanger apparently co-founded Wikipedia but I've somehow never heard of him before. Not sure how that escaped me. He's apparently famously critical of Wikipedia. The majority of this article seems to complain about giving facts undue prominence over a "balance" of viewpoints. What's the opposing viewpoint to the truth? Lies? (And his political bias really shows. The Obama article is too positive. The Trump artic…
For what it’s worth, I’ve encountered right-skewed articles many times in the past. They seem to be on less popular topics, but they absolutely exist.
Re: The Biases of Wikipedia and Moderators Today
#24Larry Sanger apparently co-founded Wikipedia but I've somehow never heard of him before. Not sure how that escaped me. He's apparently famously critical of Wikipedia. The majority of this article seems to complain about giving facts undue prominence over a "balance" of viewpoints. What's the opposing viewpoint to the truth? Lies? (And his political bias really shows. The Obama article is too positive. The Trump artic…
Re: The Biases of Wikipedia and Moderators Today
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
For what it’s worth, I’ve encountered right-skewed articles many times in the past. They seem to be on less popular topics, but they absolutely exist.
They exist on far more than just less popular topics. You just never see them. Anything even slightly right of center tends to get censored for hate speech.
[Citation Needed]
Re: The Biases of Wikipedia and Moderators Today
#26This article is insane right-wing propaganda, and if it were written by any other person, would not be appropriate for Hacker News. The only reason it makes sense here is that the fact that the author believes this nonsense is noteworthy (and alarming). "Neutral" does not mean "every opinion is taken seriously." The opinions that this article claims that Wikipedia is "biased" against are obviously and factually false…
> A large fraction of the things he says in public are either factually false or total nonsense. To say anything else would be incomprehensibly biased in the other direction. The point is that it's not for Wikipedia to say that a person lies. Instead, it needs to point to specific factual instances and quote experts when bringing the idea together.
Here are the occurrences of the word "false" in Wikipedia's page on Trump, as of today, excluding where it's clearly quoting a claim by a third party without Wikipedia appearing to support that claim (e.g., "the suit [against Trump University] alleged that the company made false statements and defrauded consumers"). The words "lying" and "lie" do not appear in the body of the article.
> Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics.
This is in the intro paragraph. It's not locally cited, but it's a summary of the article to come; there's an exhaustively referenced section later.
>Journalist Jonathan Greenberg reported in April 2018 that Trump, using a pseudonym "John Barron", called him in 1984 to falsely assert that he owned "in excess of ninety percent" of the Trump family's business...
Citation for the conversation provided, and the fact in question is trivially checkable.
> Fact-checking organizations have denounced Trump for making a record number of false statements compared to other candidates.
Three citation links provided.
> At least four major publications... have pointed out lies or falsehoods in his campaign statements
Multiple citations provided, with a quote from the LATimes in the page body ("Never in modern presidential politics has a major candidate made false statements as routinely as Trump has.")
> Throughout his presidency, he has repeatedly and falsely characterized the economy as the best in American history.
Citation to WaPo fact-checker provided. That the economy in 2016-2018 is not in any way other than SPY highs the best in American history should not be controversial.
> As president, Trump has falsely claimed he saved the coverage of pre-existing conditions provided by ACA, while his administration declined to challenge a lawsuit that would eliminate it.
Citation link to Politifact provided. It would also have been an option to cite Trump's own Twitter feed here.
> Trump falsely asserted that his administration was merely following the law [in separating families at the border].
Many citations provided, with a (cited) explanation that Trump explicitly ended a previous policy which "had made exceptions for families with children."
> falsely claiming "Anybody that wants a test can get a test [for COVID-19]," even though availability of tests was severely limited.
Multiple citations provided for the statement having been made, and for it obviously being a lie.
> False statements
Section header, with a link to a separate (also extensively sourced) article.
> As president, Trump has frequently made false statements in public speeches and remarks.
Three citations to NYTimes and LATimes fact-checkers.
> His falsehoods have also become a distinctive part of his political identity.
Citation is to a New Yorker analysis article, which is a bit odd, but that article is itself well-sourced. In any case, this is not a particularly controversial statement - that the things he says are false is well established in context; that those statements are part of his identity is something he'd probably agree with.
> In September 2016, he acknowledged that Obama was born in the U.S. and falsely claimed the rumors had been started by Hillary Clinton during her 2008 presidential campaign.
Citation to NYTimes provided for the fact that he said it. No citation should be necessary for the fact that Hillary Clinton did not start the birther conspiracy theory (which has its own Wikipedia article).
> Many of the assertions he tweeted have been proven false.
This is in a brief section specifically about his Twitter use, so it's not a non-sequitor. Citations provided to NYTimes, WaPo, Chicago Tribune fact-checkers.
> Cohen said he had made the false statements on behalf of Trump
Citation provided, and this is in respect to statements that Cohen pled under oath to be lies.
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...and that's it. With one potential exception, every time that Wikipedia says in its own voice that Trump (or one of his associate) lies, it is well-sourced, specific, and pertinent. No need for concern trolling.
Wikipedia could of course instead say "Trump said X" without pointing out that X is ludicrously and dangerously false, but that would be a lie by omission, and Wikipedia would be less valuable as a source of information for it.
Re: The Biases of Wikipedia and Moderators Today
#27Wikipedia is a free enterprise, and therefore completely free to do whatever it wants, including being biased.
Most HN readers know otherwise and have a pinch of salt on hand if they use it but your average high school student isn’t going to be aware of the systemic flaws of Wikipedia and I doubt their teachers do either.
Re: The Biases of Wikipedia and Moderators Today
#28Re: The Biases of Wikipedia and Moderators Today
#29Re: The Biases of Wikipedia and Moderators Today
#30Why was this post flagged? It’s really sad that the common theme in HN is anti-censorship but at the same time most of the base heavily disapproves of content that doesn’t fit their ideologies or narratives.
Advocating censorship under the guise of “free speech” is, in my opinion, manipulative and disingenuous.