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Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life

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Re: Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life

#21
post #8
post #2

Some good points, although I'd toss another thought into the mix. The confinements and shutdowns and shelter in place orders also cost lives. We know that recessions cost lives. One study (published in The Lancet, so worth taking a second look at) suggested 500k excess cancer deaths from the global financial crisis[1], and another study (published in the BMJ) suggested that excess suicides in 2009 alone across the US…

If the movement restrictions cost lives, why are total fatalities down? (even including SARS deaths)

They undoubtedly do cost lives but:

1) You're looking at net lives, and there's no particular reason to think we're net negative yet. Let's imagine a brief lockdown to avoid overwhelming the emergency rooms with people needing ventilators is very net positive. And let's imagine crippling the economy by fully locking down everything until a vaccine passes clinical trials in 18 months is very net negative. Even if you accept these as true, we might have weeks to go until the crossover point arrives...or we might have already passed it.

2) Which brings us to the next point - even if we're already in net negative territory, deaths from Covid-19 are (hopefully) front loaded; they're happening now. Deaths three years from now because the long term economic growth rate is 0.2% lower than it otherwise would have been are still in the future. I linked to some studies suggesting the GFC cost a fair chunk of lives in the end, but you wouldn't have been able to detect any of that the week after Lehman failed; the fallout had yet to land.

And finally:

3) Coming back to the point in the linked article, there's more to life than strict maximising quality-adjusted life years. There's a lot of ways you could, in principle, save lives via a stroke of a pen. Boxing, white water rafting, surfing, diving, and mountain climbing are all shockingly dangerous sports. We could ban them! It'd straight up save lives. Should we? I, for one, would strongly argue no. But that cuts both ways. Even if we had inarguably correct data showing continuing the lockdowns was starting to cost lives, that's the starting point for the debate, not the conclusion. We don't (and shouldn't) just do the things that would save the most lives.

Re: Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life

#22
post #2

Some good points, although I'd toss another thought into the mix. The confinements and shutdowns and shelter in place orders also cost lives. We know that recessions cost lives. One study (published in The Lancet, so worth taking a second look at) suggested 500k excess cancer deaths from the global financial crisis[1], and another study (published in the BMJ) suggested that excess suicides in 2009 alone across the US…

> but we know recessions reduce the resources available at the margins for food, medicine and shelter, and increase the suicide rate

OK, agreed, because of hardship.

But a lot of that hardship is due to enormous wealth inequality (I'm assuming you're a US person). How about you don't have titanic inequalities instead? Would that work?

Re: Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life

#23

Something that seems not to be considered by many observers is that if a disease is not eliminated, it will continuously either claim lives or reduce efficiency (which claims lives).

We are in better position then before tho. We have cheaper tests now and we can manufacture them more quickly. The way people get infected is also clearer now and we can have partial limitations on economy more effectively. Pretty soon, we can be in position to test, say, 50% of workers in factory every week and having asymptotic sick at home. People got used to wearing masks in public indoor spaces and to sanitizing their hands upon entering stores.

Overall, we are in much better position to make selective limitations, opening and closing depending on what numbers are. Countries that locked down soon are opening now with small numbers of infections - they are able to do tracing and test all contacts of any new infection.

We are getting better at controlling the pandemic.

Re: Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life

#24
post #5

> In the end, these determinations all place an unspoken price on human life We are already doing this by letting people drive with personal vehicles every year even they cost dozens of thousands of lives. There is no zero risk, but we decide (we, as in, the society at large, not individuals) what level of harm is "acceptable".

We have incredible amount of regulations on what personal vehicles can do and how they can be made. We did not just accepted deaths from automobiles, we wrote driving rules, mandate seat bells, automobile makers have to prove their cars pass safety tests.

Re: Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life

#25

Something that seems not to be considered by many observers is that if a disease is not eliminated, it will continuously either claim lives or reduce efficiency (which claims lives).

Yes, people are really underestimating the effects of the virus that aren't fatal. While I know nobody that's died from it I know several who've been off sick for weeks.

Re: Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life

#26

Something that seems not to be considered by many observers is that if a disease is not eliminated, it will continuously either claim lives or reduce efficiency (which claims lives).

Is there reasonable hope for a virus like this to be completely eliminated? I figure if it's in that sweet spot of contagiousness, incubation time and mortality, it's hard to eradicate completely. And unless it's eradicated completely, we'll absolutely have to live with reduced efficiency in hyper-alert testing of anyone with symptoms, unless we find that it ceases to be a serious problem once humans have had contact…

I'm not qualified to answer that;

but as a layman I share your concern. From lay reading it seems that the large organisations were hoping that situations like this could be arrested at source or in the early stages.

To double down on my earlier comment; the inefficiencies the disease cause are not strictly the testing etc.

Look at the regular flu [1] [2] it has been "measured" as costing economies some pretty significant sums every year ($87bn USA, £1.35bn UK, different standards used); of course this could be said to pale against the size of these leading economies [3] landing at less than 1%. An annual flu tax is certianly not ideal.

Additional diseases will have different "tax rates", and I have no idea to the way in which they will interact.

You have to bear in mind that a tax rate is a form of inhibitive cost, and the burden of disease could be holding other economies back.

[1] https://www.cdcfoundation.org/pr/flu-costs-United-States-87-...

[2] https://www.hrmagazine.co.uk/article-details/flu-costs-the-b...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi...

Re: Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life

#27
post #2

Some good points, although I'd toss another thought into the mix. The confinements and shutdowns and shelter in place orders also cost lives. We know that recessions cost lives. One study (published in The Lancet, so worth taking a second look at) suggested 500k excess cancer deaths from the global financial crisis[1], and another study (published in the BMJ) suggested that excess suicides in 2009 alone across the US…

> but we know recessions reduce the resources available at the margins for food, medicine and shelter, and increase the suicide rate OK, agreed, because of hardship. But a lot of that hardship is due to enormous wealth inequality (I'm assuming you're a US person). How about you don't have titanic inequalities instead? Would that work?

It would. The fact that a science-based public health response to a public health crisis is causing extreme economic hardship for so many people right now indicates that our economic system is broken.

The science behind reducing transmission of the virus is sound. What's going to get people killed in the near term is twofold: people undermining or protesting the quarantine orders; and people who need to go to work in order to support their families and not get evicted, who end up contracting the virus and either dying or spreading it to others. The former is either due to some kind of fucked up value system that interprets a temporary public health quarantine as some kind of intolerable infringement of rights. The latter is because the American form of capitalism leaves so many people so far behind that they can never get ahead.

Re: Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life

#28
>The Hong Kong Flu caused more deaths than are projected for this current pandemic and yet, at the time, no one thought of bringing entire economies to a halt.

The other way to look at it, even with the quarentine this pandemic will kill a similar number of people.

If the reports were true that "half the workers were in bed," that would mean there were millions of cases, yet only ~50k deaths. Compare that to the current pandemic, where France has 25k deaths in ~150k cases.

Re: Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life

#29
post #21
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the movement restrictions cost lives, why are total fatalities down? (even including SARS deaths)

They undoubtedly do cost lives but: 1) You're looking at net lives, and there's no particular reason to think we're net negative yet . Let's imagine a brief lockdown to avoid overwhelming the emergency rooms with people needing ventilators is very net positive. And let's imagine crippling the economy by fully locking down everything until a vaccine passes clinical trials in 18 months is very net negative. Even if you…

Regarding point 3, I think your examples, being individual sports that people choose to participate in, are kind of straw men. For one, relatively few people die doing them. For another, as I mentioned, they're activities that people participate in, knowing that there are some serious risks.

A better example would be "let's end all farm subsidies for sugar and tobacco." You could arguably include corn here, as well. Go a little further, and you can start talking about national sugar and tobacco taxes. All these measures simply increase the price of sugar and tobacco, which has been proven to reduce consumption, and would certainly have the effect of reducing obesity and cancer.

I find it a lot harder to argue against those things than to say we should ban surfing, boxing, or rafting, because a few people get injured or die every year doing them.

Re: Deconfinement: The Price of Human Life

#30

Something that seems not to be considered by many observers is that if a disease is not eliminated, it will continuously either claim lives or reduce efficiency (which claims lives).

Is there reasonable hope for a virus like this to be completely eliminated? I figure if it's in that sweet spot of contagiousness, incubation time and mortality, it's hard to eradicate completely. And unless it's eradicated completely, we'll absolutely have to live with reduced efficiency in hyper-alert testing of anyone with symptoms, unless we find that it ceases to be a serious problem once humans have had contact…

I'm not sure the person you're responding to was using it in this sense, but the word "eliminate," in epidemiological terms, means to get the virus under control such that outbreaks are reduced in scope to local clusters that can be dealt with using methods like contact tracing. In that sense, yes, we absolutely can, and should, eliminate this virus.
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