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$14M in ETH stolen from Upbit were laundered in May through well-known exchanges

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Re: $14M in ETH stolen from Upbit were laundered in May through well-known exchanges

#21

Post by arcticbull »

cortesoft wrote: post #20
arcticbull wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not your keys, not your coins™ -- with that as the core philosophy of cryptocurrency, can you even say this was stolen, let alone laundered? It sounds like the person with the keys transferred the coins into another wallet. Resolved: behaves correctly. At least, as intended anyways.

I don't think there is anything fundamental about cryptocurrency that would make them entirely immune to theft. You can both believe that the blockchain is working as intended and that the coins were stolen.

I don't disagree although the system philosophically, at it's core, has no concept of theft, of permission, or reversal. Keys = coins.

Re: $14M in ETH stolen from Upbit were laundered in May through well-known exchanges

#22

Post by mindslight »

save_ferris wrote: post #2

This is an interesting piece, and it highlights one problem I’ve noticed with crypto in general recently, which is that these kinds of investigations are largely being carried out by private entities who build platforms around this type of forensics without any real ability to go after the exchanges that have permitted this laundering. Between this and Bitfinex refusing to submit to an external auditor and other even…

In order for something to function as money, it must be fungible - every unit must be interchangeable. Bitcoin and many other cryptocurrencies lack a critical ecash property known as untraceability. This has attracted private analysis companies offering solutions for legacy identity-bound concerns even despite them being directly contrary to existing cryptocurrency conventions and desires.

Ten years ago the refrain was "Bitcoin is anonymous". These days exchanges and even cash-based ATMs want your identifying info. Ten years from now, every flow of value will be bound to a real world identity. If we're lucky, the coins that do have untraceability will survive.

Re: $14M in ETH stolen from Upbit were laundered in May through well-known exchanges

#23

Post by afidrya »

cortesoft wrote: post #18
nfin wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it is like saying in the 90s: we don't need open protocols like pop3/imap, because AOL is centralized anyway (fast forward today: yes, most people still use centralized gmail/outlook.com, but I still have a) the choice to host my mails and b) lower cost to build a service that compete with the big ones, as I don't need to part of the big-players to plug-in to the open "email-system") In "crypto" centralized" companie…

Although that 'open email system' isn't as open in practice, since most of the big providers aren't going to accept your email if you set up your own sender.

For example which ones? For past few years I'm using Mail-in-a-Box hosted on soyoustart and can't remember any problems when sending mail to big providers. I only had to check that IP is not in spam lists initially and asked to remove it from one of them.

Re: $14M in ETH stolen from Upbit were laundered in May through well-known exchanges

#24

Post by dylkil »

save_ferris wrote: post #2

This is an interesting piece, and it highlights one problem I’ve noticed with crypto in general recently, which is that these kinds of investigations are largely being carried out by private entities who build platforms around this type of forensics without any real ability to go after the exchanges that have permitted this laundering. Between this and Bitfinex refusing to submit to an external auditor and other even…

>Wasn’t that whole point of these coins to begin with?

The whole point was to have an open system where you dont place trust in or ask permission of someone to use. That still holds up in this scenario.

Re: $14M in ETH stolen from Upbit were laundered in May through well-known exchanges

#25

Post by cortesoft »

fastball wrote: post #12
wayoutthere wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've hit on the core reason cryptocurrencies aren't going to take off as currencies. They've taken the governance aspect previously enacted by the federal reserve and enforced through the banks and replaced it with a shadowy cabal of exchange owners. Ultimately I think it's a people problem that can't be solved through technology. But cryptocurrency does happen to be quite useful for money laundering...

Decentralized exchanges exist for the more sophisticated cryptos (e.g. Ethereum).

Sure, but you will never be able to get out fiat currency from a decentralized exchange (which is what most people want).

Re: $14M in ETH stolen from Upbit were laundered in May through well-known exchanges

#26

Post by cortesoft »

arcticbull wrote: post #21
cortesoft wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there is anything fundamental about cryptocurrency that would make them entirely immune to theft. You can both believe that the blockchain is working as intended and that the coins were stolen.

I don't disagree although the system philosophically, at it's core, has no concept of theft, of permission, or reversal. Keys = coins.

> Keys = coins

Exactly... and if you steal the keys, you are stealing the coins.

Re: $14M in ETH stolen from Upbit were laundered in May through well-known exchanges

#27

Post by arcticbull »

cortesoft wrote: post #26
arcticbull wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree although the system philosophically, at it's core, has no concept of theft, of permission, or reversal. Keys = coins.

> Keys = coins Exactly... and if you steal the keys, you are stealing the coins.

Can you steal keys? Can you "steal" a song? Is it a copyright issue? IP issue? I'm genuinely curious what this concept maps onto.

Re: $14M in ETH stolen from Upbit were laundered in May through well-known exchanges

#28

Post by hanniabu »

fastball wrote: post #12
wayoutthere wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've hit on the core reason cryptocurrencies aren't going to take off as currencies. They've taken the governance aspect previously enacted by the federal reserve and enforced through the banks and replaced it with a shadowy cabal of exchange owners. Ultimately I think it's a people problem that can't be solved through technology. But cryptocurrency does happen to be quite useful for money laundering...

Decentralized exchanges exist for the more sophisticated cryptos (e.g. Ethereum).

Also for bitcoin- based protocols (Block DX)

Re: $14M in ETH stolen from Upbit were laundered in May through well-known exchanges

#29

Post by jasonlingx »

dylkil wrote: post #24
save_ferris wrote: post #2

This is an interesting piece, and it highlights one problem I’ve noticed with crypto in general recently, which is that these kinds of investigations are largely being carried out by private entities who build platforms around this type of forensics without any real ability to go after the exchanges that have permitted this laundering. Between this and Bitfinex refusing to submit to an external auditor and other even…

>Wasn’t that whole point of these coins to begin with? The whole point was to have an open system where you dont place trust in or ask permission of someone to use. That still holds up in this scenario.

And governments can’t just print more of it at their whim.

Re: $14M in ETH stolen from Upbit were laundered in May through well-known exchanges

#30

Post by deevolution »

save_ferris wrote: post #2

This is an interesting piece, and it highlights one problem I’ve noticed with crypto in general recently, which is that these kinds of investigations are largely being carried out by private entities who build platforms around this type of forensics without any real ability to go after the exchanges that have permitted this laundering. Between this and Bitfinex refusing to submit to an external auditor and other even…

This is why people should use P2P exchanges like Bisq or localbitcoins. The moment you transfer your coins to an exchange is the moment you lose control.
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