Valve drops VR support for macOS • Hacker News Board

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#21

Post by barkingcat » Sat, May 02, 2020, 3:03 AM UTC

sysbin wrote: post #12

Danieru wrote: post #6

Mac is a horrible platform to support for video game developers. Speaking from experience the issues are: 1. No cross platform builds allowed. We can compile to Windows, Linux, Android, Switch, PS4, Xbox One all from one windows build machine. 2. Shifting sand of non-backwards compatibility. Notice how of the above list everyone except Linux and Android have solid back compat stories. Video games are in development f…

How is using something like unreal engine not able to compile to all operating systems. I'm not a game developer so pardon my ignorance but can you not just run macOS on a VM from Windows to compile? Hardware isn't horrible from Apple. It's just more expensive for macOS and the complete build quality that has been slipping over the years. All Apple users know we're paying more for the hardware than machines preinstal…

MacOS Vm's on any other platform other than Macs are disallowed by the EULA. And while you might or might not believe in EULA's, Apple's legal department certainly does and will prosecute commercial entities (for example, if you are trying to build and sell a game)

Re Steve Jobs on games, you can believe in your own skepticism, or you can hear it directly from John Carmack, the creator of DOOM, who tried to work with Steve Jobs to get a proper foundation for gaming on the Mac. He did not succeed.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/john-carmack-talks-stev...

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#22

Post by gumby » Sat, May 02, 2020, 3:03 AM UTC

ashtonkem wrote: post #13

Danieru wrote: post #6

Mac is a horrible platform to support for video game developers. Speaking from experience the issues are: 1. No cross platform builds allowed. We can compile to Windows, Linux, Android, Switch, PS4, Xbox One all from one windows build machine. 2. Shifting sand of non-backwards compatibility. Notice how of the above list everyone except Linux and Android have solid back compat stories. Video games are in development f…

I will say that the newer MBPs have decent video cards. They’re not great, but they’re ok-ish.

Unfortunately due to the mobile architecture you can’t sync frames. This is true on the windows side too but there you can get a “gamer” laptop which has a desktop cpu and video architecture. We could only demo castar for example On a gamer laptop or a desktop. Even a cheap desktop worked great.

I’m a Mac user and develop on the Mac so you might think I’d bend over backwards to make an excuse, but...not possible in this area. Those gpus do render beautiful pictures and can do some cool gpgpu crunching, but aren’t appropriate for gaming.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#23

Post by ashtonkem » Sat, May 02, 2020, 3:04 AM UTC

Danieru wrote: post #18

ashtonkem wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will say that the newer MBPs have decent video cards. They’re not great, but they’re ok-ish.

Indeed, new machines can have decent GPUs. Except the install base is where your game will be played. Thus the average matters.

The install base of your buyer matters, not the install base of Apple. I doubt that the average MacBook Air buyer is the average Mac video gamer, and I bet that MBPs are over represented in Mac video game uses.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#24

Post by kroltan » Sat, May 02, 2020, 3:04 AM UTC

sysbin wrote: post #12

Danieru wrote: post #6

Mac is a horrible platform to support for video game developers. Speaking from experience the issues are: 1. No cross platform builds allowed. We can compile to Windows, Linux, Android, Switch, PS4, Xbox One all from one windows build machine. 2. Shifting sand of non-backwards compatibility. Notice how of the above list everyone except Linux and Android have solid back compat stories. Video games are in development f…

How is using something like unreal engine not able to compile to all operating systems. I'm not a game developer so pardon my ignorance but can you not just run macOS on a VM from Windows to compile? Hardware isn't horrible from Apple. It's just more expensive for macOS and the complete build quality that has been slipping over the years. All Apple users know we're paying more for the hardware than machines preinstal…

> just run macOS on a VM

As far as I know it is against the terms of service to run Mac OS on non-Apple hardware, so you can't just run a macOS VM.

> Hardware isn't horrible from Apple. It's just more expensive for macOS.

Is that not the same thing, effectively? For a given buying power, a player that chooses mac will have objectively poorer hardware.

Yes, there are a few capable rigs for Apple systems, but they are ludicrously expensive and thus provide a minuscule install base for your game, so it's basically not worth the effort for a triple-A studio. Less demanding games might be more viable, but it's still a lot of costs in porting, build infrastructure and publishing for very little return.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#25

Post by dralley » Sat, May 02, 2020, 3:05 AM UTC

ashtonkem wrote: post #13

Danieru wrote: post #6

Mac is a horrible platform to support for video game developers. Speaking from experience the issues are: 1. No cross platform builds allowed. We can compile to Windows, Linux, Android, Switch, PS4, Xbox One all from one windows build machine. 2. Shifting sand of non-backwards compatibility. Notice how of the above list everyone except Linux and Android have solid back compat stories. Video games are in development f…

I will say that the newer MBPs have decent video cards. They’re not great, but they’re ok-ish.

But "decent" isn't really good enough for VR, where high refresh rates matter quite a bit.

Another factor in play might be that, if rumors are to be believed, future Macbooks will be shipping with ARM chips, with yet-to-be-determined CPU and Graphics performance. That might be a bridge too far for crossplatform projects who are already frustrated about having to maintain a Metal backend just for Mac.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#26

Post by ashtonkem » Sat, May 02, 2020, 3:07 AM UTC

gumby wrote: post #22

ashtonkem wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will say that the newer MBPs have decent video cards. They’re not great, but they’re ok-ish.

Unfortunately due to the mobile architecture you can’t sync frames. This is true on the windows side too but there you can get a “gamer” laptop which has a desktop cpu and video architecture. We could only demo castar for example On a gamer laptop or a desktop. Even a cheap desktop worked great. I’m a Mac user and develop on the Mac so you might think I’d bend over backwards to make an excuse, but...not possible in t…

Genuinely surprising. I’ve switched over from gaming on my older PC (very old CPU but a 1050ti) to my MBP for cable logistical reasons, and the MBP performs admirably. Admittedly I’m no hardcore gamer, but I’m satisfied with what my MBP can do.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#27

Post by ashtonkem » Sat, May 02, 2020, 3:07 AM UTC

dralley wrote: post #25

ashtonkem wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will say that the newer MBPs have decent video cards. They’re not great, but they’re ok-ish.

But "decent" isn't really good enough for VR, where high refresh rates matter quite a bit. Another factor in play might be that, if rumors are to be believed, future Macbooks will be shipping with ARM chips, with yet-to-be-determined CPU and Graphics performance. That might be a bridge too far for crossplatform projects who are already frustrated about having to maintain a Metal backend just for Mac.

Totally fair. VR has much higher requirements than regular gaming.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#28

Post by reom_tobit » Sat, May 02, 2020, 3:09 AM UTC

ashtonkem wrote: post #13

Danieru wrote: post #6

Mac is a horrible platform to support for video game developers. Speaking from experience the issues are: 1. No cross platform builds allowed. We can compile to Windows, Linux, Android, Switch, PS4, Xbox One all from one windows build machine. 2. Shifting sand of non-backwards compatibility. Notice how of the above list everyone except Linux and Android have solid back compat stories. Video games are in development f…

I will say that the newer MBPs have decent video cards. They’re not great, but they’re ok-ish.

It’s not necessarily about the hardware, but (for me at least) more to do with the OpenGL hacks I have to do to get reasonable cross platform support rolling.

Took about 2 days to take a win project to linux, that same win project took about 3 weeks to port to mac.

That was the first time I’d done it of course (to either mac or linux), but I just found the mac documentation to be severely lacking.

Also all macs are now stuck on OpenGL 4.1 forever, it may not matter much now, but it will show in future.

And yes I know Vulkan is a thing but I think that’ll take a while to fully be adopted by the games community.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#29

Post by Taek » Sat, May 02, 2020, 3:09 AM UTC

ashtonkem wrote: post #19

I remain skeptical of the long term viability of VR; I’m old enough to remember when 3D TVs and monitors were going to change the face of both TV and video games, and yet here we are. I priced out VR recently and I was unimpressed with the price per value available, with most systems adding $500-$1,000 to my gaming system’s cost, and some requiring that I modify my room to work properly. And that’s not even accountin…

Yeah but have you played beat saber?

I'm dead serious though the experience you get in a good immersive VR rig is completely unrivaled. Well worth the hassle and overhead. This will get better as costs come down and developers continue to innovate.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#30

Post by ashtonkem » Sat, May 02, 2020, 3:14 AM UTC

Taek wrote: post #29

ashtonkem wrote: post #19

I remain skeptical of the long term viability of VR; I’m old enough to remember when 3D TVs and monitors were going to change the face of both TV and video games, and yet here we are. I priced out VR recently and I was unimpressed with the price per value available, with most systems adding $500-$1,000 to my gaming system’s cost, and some requiring that I modify my room to work properly. And that’s not even accountin…

Yeah but have you played beat saber? I'm dead serious though the experience you get in a good immersive VR rig is completely unrivaled. Well worth the hassle and overhead. This will get better as costs come down and developers continue to innovate.

Obviously I have not tried beat saber. If it’s that amazing, I wouldn’t be posting cynical takes on VR.

I think one of the problems of VR is one of cost and credibility. Even if I knew you personally and trusted you, there is no way in hell I’m going to float thousands of dollars getting a new gaming PC, VR headset, and customizing my room for the full setup just because someone said it’s amazing. The risk/reward ratio for that is just insane, and not in a good way.

Heck, even $500 for an entry level setup is a pretty dicey proposition, assuming my PC can lift it. $500 can buy me a lot of non-VR gaming satisfaction with effectively 0 risk.

If it was $200, I’d consider it.