The Diminishing Returns of Everything • Hacker News Board

Re: The Diminishing Returns of Everything

#21

Post by RegBarclay » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 1:20 PM UTC

I think there is additional value to automating or improving a process even if the time spent automating exceeds the time saved by the automation.

What if it just makes me happy that I can turn the bathroom light on with my voice even though the time spent figuring it out exceeds any time saved by the automation?

What if I make a sucky task at work more approachable and easier by improving it? Rather than procrastinating doing the thing because I hate it, I pick it up and do it right away because I invested some time in making it suck less.

What if I gain skills automating one thing that make me more efficient on the next thing even if I'll never recover the time spent on the first thing?

Re: The Diminishing Returns of Everything

#22

Post by nradov » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 2:19 PM UTC

turbinerneiter wrote: post #2

> For instance, I spend the past two days working on a single CSS file, in an attempt to center-align some stupid buttons (a futile attempt, since they are still not aligned). In comparison, at the beginning of the project, I built out the entire REST backend of the web app in a single afternoon. It could be argued that the value of the REST backend is lower than the value of the stupid buttons: since the backend is…

It's sad how we've actually gone backwards in front-end developer productivity relative to what we had 20 years ago in Visual Basic. The gains in ease of distribution are certainly worth something but still it's disappointing how little progress we have made.

Re: The Diminishing Returns of Everything

#23

Post by hyperpallium » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 2:44 PM UTC

cmenge wrote: post #7

I can see why it feels this way, but often times it seems to me the opposite is true, like a phase transition: it remains a bunch of commits until at some point it 'suddenly' becomes a product, usable by the designated users, solving a problem, possibly generating revenue. Like water that cools and cools and eventually turns to ice, even though that last quarter degree didn't change the temperature a lot.

Extreme programming's "tracer bullet" is sort of a way around this, by implementing a minimal subset of functionality all the way though, so it "works".

The diminishing routines then come when expanding each stage. But at least you have the encouragement of being in post-phase-transition. This is like a MVP or Mark Cerny's "Method", but for motivation, not evaluation.

also, straw that broke the camel's back

Re: The Diminishing Returns of Everything

#24

Post by jriot » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 2:48 PM UTC

It might not net you a 7-pack, but it could possibly net you an 8-pack.

Re: The Diminishing Returns of Everything

#25

Post by JamesBarney » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 3:15 PM UTC

cmenge wrote: post #7

I can see why it feels this way, but often times it seems to me the opposite is true, like a phase transition: it remains a bunch of commits until at some point it 'suddenly' becomes a product, usable by the designated users, solving a problem, possibly generating revenue. Like water that cools and cools and eventually turns to ice, even though that last quarter degree didn't change the temperature a lot.

I think you're getting at something very important about the article.

> The first couple hundred lines of code of your project will have a much larger impact than the last few thousand lines of code ever will.

This is true of impact on functionality, not necessarily impact on the world.

If I write my own todo app it might be useful to one person, but as I continue to work on it, eventually 2 people will find it useful. Then 3. I could be up to 3x less productive per hour and still have the same impact per hour due the increased number of users.

Impact on the world is (functionality) * (# of users). If you're working on a useful project the number of users will more than make up for the diminishing functionality returns per hour.

Re: The Diminishing Returns of Everything

#26

Post by ken » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 3:23 PM UTC

swader999 wrote: post #12

I don't feel like this applies to UX. The third or fourth pass in this area can often make a huge difference.

More generally: editing. (e.g., How Star Wars was saved in the edit)

Re: The Diminishing Returns of Everything

#27

Post by MaxBarraclough » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 3:46 PM UTC

JamesBarney wrote: post #25

cmenge wrote: post #7

I can see why it feels this way, but often times it seems to me the opposite is true, like a phase transition: it remains a bunch of commits until at some point it 'suddenly' becomes a product, usable by the designated users, solving a problem, possibly generating revenue. Like water that cools and cools and eventually turns to ice, even though that last quarter degree didn't change the temperature a lot.

I think you're getting at something very important about the article. > The first couple hundred lines of code of your project will have a much larger impact than the last few thousand lines of code ever will. This is true of impact on functionality, not necessarily impact on the world. If I write my own todo app it might be useful to one person, but as I continue to work on it, eventually 2 people will find it usefu…

To rephrase this then: your additional work may improve your product only a little, but it may be enough that it can now compete in the market. If it's a winner-takes-all market, a slight improvement in quality may be especially consequential.

edit I think this might model the success of Slack. Which chat program should we use? There are lots of free ones and they're all about the same, but Slack has slightly better polish than the rest and is easy to set up. Let's use that. If that conversation happens in tens of thousands of organisations, you take over the world.

Re: The Diminishing Returns of Everything

#28

Post by simplify » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 3:47 PM UTC

mr_gibbins wrote: post #14

This is disingenuous. Sure, the first X hours of working on a new project are a lot of fun and you can set up the framework for what you're doing and feel like you're making great progress. But what you're missing is detail and quality. For example, I can set up the structure of my thesis by working out chapter titles, headings, subheadings and drafting bullet points per section. Straightforward. But doing the resear…

You're misusing the word "disingenuous". The author has no ill intention of being insincere.

Re: The Diminishing Returns of Everything

#29

Post by pradn » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 4:38 PM UTC

Duckapple wrote: post #17

I don't really like the emphasis on "wasting" time, the way he wrote it in the bathroom light automation section. If you do not enjoy tinkering with voice activation (or X thing in the general sense), then I can see why you wouldn't like losing time, but I would probably feel like it was 5 hours spent learning about home automation and voice control, which could maybe be applicable in other cases, both within home au…

Yes, work time and leisure time should be "graded" differently. Making your leisure time about being productive makes you an automaton. Just messing around is something we should cherish.

Re: The Diminishing Returns of Everything

#30

Post by ken » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 4:48 PM UTC

> The same goes for abs. The first ten thousand set-ups you do just may give you that 6-pack abs you want, but another thirty thousand sure won't get you the 7-pack.

He picked the one type of exercise which doesn't really change. If you're lifting or running, you see increasing returns for a long time. You get stronger by lifting heavy weights, and you need to lift light weights to be able to lift heavy weights.