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Feynman: making the extraordinary look easy

the-tls.co.uk

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Re: Feynman: making the extraordinary look easy

#21

Post by hyperman1 »

gjm11 wrote: post #6
watwut wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simultaneously you acknowledge that sexism existed and simultaneously you want to make it taboo. It is not personal offence to you that sexism existed or exist nor something outrageous to talk about it. This is how he is characterized: > known for his [...], sexism along with generous support for women academicians But to answer the question, the reason for this to not make it taboo is simple - it is part of history…

Why do you say that hyperman1 "want[s] to make it taboo"? I don't see that at all. I think he[1] is just saying: the article says Feynman was sexist, but I haven't seen evidence of that and find it hard to believe. For what it's worth, I think it's clear that Feynman was, at the very least, what-we-nowadays-tend-to-call-sexist. That is, he saw women as sex objects and talked about them as sex objects, and so far as I…

Thanks. Your interpretation is indeed what I intended.

To be clear: I see more sexism in the Los Alamos chapter,where a 'Girl' is only good enough to do computations, until the computer replaces them.

While the bar-chapters quoted here paint a bleak picture, it does so of both sexes, and Feynman remarks how things didn't work as he wasbrought up to expect.

I am indeed male,even if 'hyperman' was a happy artefact of an algorithm that shortened my 4 word full name to 8 characters to create a student logon name. My classmates liked it and it stuck

Re: Feynman: making the extraordinary look easy

#22

Post by adamsea »

nscalf wrote: post #12

I’m so sick of these hatchet jobs on long dead people. If you are not empathetic enough to put yourself in the position of a different society, you’re probably not empathic enough to criticize a persons character. Additionally, I don’t care if he was sexist. We don’t like Feynman because he was a feminist. We like Feynman because he led the charge in scientific discovery and progress. No one is perfect.

For context, this is the _entirety_ of the portion of the article which critiques Feynman's behavior towards women. It's not even 1/5 of the article.

"In high school, though Feynman excelled in academics, he began to foster insecurities around masculinity. Later in life this would curdle into juvenile braggadocio and poisonous attitudes towards women, with him making degrading remarks about those he met, and which persisted throughout his life. Such behavior is chronicled in a notorious chapter of his autobiography, Surely You’re Joking, Mr. Feynman! (“I adopted the attitude that those bar girls are all bitches, that they aren’t worth anything, and all they’re in there for is to get you to buy them a drink, and they’re not going to give you a goddamn thing”). Yet, this markedly contrasted with his unwavering respect for the many talented women he supported: starting with his sister and including his first wife Arline. He was impressed and influenced by Arline’s skills as an artist and music teacher. The marriage ended tragically early when Arline died of tuberculosis. Years later, Feynman leant valuable support to the Blake scholar Jenijoy La Belle, the first female faculty appointment at Caltech, who had been denied tenure. One of the few professors outside of the humanities who came to her defence, he published an influential letter of support in the campus newspaper, and thanks in part to this, she received tenure and enjoyed a long career."

I'm confused. The article is 90% about his career as a scientist, and is nothing but laudatory. 10%, if that, is about his relationships with women, and even the critique given there is tempered w/the observation that he had a strong and loving relationship with his wife.

So, how is this a hatchet job? Reads more like a normal biographical article.

What exactly is your critique here?

Re: Feynman: making the extraordinary look easy

#23

Post by umvi »

batlamenace wrote: post #19

I'm not sure a lot of the comments here have read Feynman's memoir. As much as he was a brilliant scientist, his attitude towards women does show. That chapter is chilling, it reads like a post on an incel group. Sure he was in a more sexist society. But the reason this still matters is that it represents the sexist culture that's still around in science today. It's not about the man it's a bigger discussion on an in…

The impression I got after reading "Surely, You're Joking, Mr. Feynman" was not that Feynman was sexist (though I did raise my eyebrows a few times), but that he laundered his vanity via manufactured anecdotes about himself. When I say manufactured, I don't mean "false", I mean he subtly (but actively) manipulated the (otherwise ordinary) situations he found himself in such that they would turn into interesting or even unbelievable anecdotes starring... well him!

I still enjoyed the book immensely, mind you, and I have no doubt some of the anecdotes were genuine, but that was the general impression I had by the end.

Re: Feynman: making the extraordinary look easy

#24

Post by kingkongjaffa »

amelius wrote: post #8

Who would be the "Feynman(s)" of our time?

One answer would be 'science is done in a much more collaborative way now' so singular titans of a field is much less of a thing.

That being said, I suspect another answer would be 'Imagine some kind of complex disaster investigation, who would the nation call on to help solve it?'

That he was brilliant and also seemingly very broad, is probably less common now along both axis simply because there's so much more stuff now in every field.

Re: Feynman: making the extraordinary look easy

#25

Post by forgot_my_pwd »

codesections wrote: post #5

The article quotes Feynman's memoirs is a highly misleading way. It says: > Such behavior is chronicled in a notorious chapter of his autobiography, Surely You’re Joking, Mr. Feynman! (“I adopted the attitude that those bar girls are all bitches, that they aren’t worth anything, and all they’re in there for is to get you to buy them a drink, and they’re not going to give you a goddamn thing”). This suggests that the…

>“I adopted the attitude that those bar girls are all bitches, that they aren’t worth anything, and all they’re in there for is to get you to buy them a drink, and they’re not going to give you a goddamn thing”

Who hasn't said something of this sort or spirit at one time or another. Both men and women. Even if it wasn't part of some thought experiment, it's an irrelevant anecdote...

Re: Feynman: making the extraordinary look easy

#26

Post by cheez »

at_a_remove wrote: post #18
nscalf wrote: post #12

I’m so sick of these hatchet jobs on long dead people. If you are not empathetic enough to put yourself in the position of a different society, you’re probably not empathic enough to criticize a persons character. Additionally, I don’t care if he was sexist. We don’t like Feynman because he was a feminist. We like Feynman because he led the charge in scientific discovery and progress. No one is perfect.

And curiously no mention of the time a girlfriend faked a pregnancy, got the abortion money from him, and bought some furniture. These folks are so selective in what they present, and the slant never changes.

Man, he's lucky she just faked it.

Re: Feynman: making the extraordinary look easy

#27

Post by kaesar14 »

forgot_my_pwd wrote: post #25
codesections wrote: post #5

The article quotes Feynman's memoirs is a highly misleading way. It says: > Such behavior is chronicled in a notorious chapter of his autobiography, Surely You’re Joking, Mr. Feynman! (“I adopted the attitude that those bar girls are all bitches, that they aren’t worth anything, and all they’re in there for is to get you to buy them a drink, and they’re not going to give you a goddamn thing”). This suggests that the…

>“I adopted the attitude that those bar girls are all bitches, that they aren’t worth anything, and all they’re in there for is to get you to buy them a drink, and they’re not going to give you a goddamn thing” Who hasn't said something of this sort or spirit at one time or another. Both men and women. Even if it wasn't part of some thought experiment, it's an irrelevant anecdote...

"I adopted the attitude that those bar boys are all assholes, that they aren't worth anything, and all they're in there for is to get in your pants, and they're not going to give you a goddamn thing"

it's universal i think

Re: Feynman: making the extraordinary look easy

#28

Post by archsurface »

codesections wrote: post #5

The article quotes Feynman's memoirs is a highly misleading way. It says: > Such behavior is chronicled in a notorious chapter of his autobiography, Surely You’re Joking, Mr. Feynman! (“I adopted the attitude that those bar girls are all bitches, that they aren’t worth anything, and all they’re in there for is to get you to buy them a drink, and they’re not going to give you a goddamn thing”). This suggests that the…

"bar girls" != "woman" (sic).

Re: Feynman: making the extraordinary look easy

#29

Post by swsieber »

nscalf wrote: post #12

I’m so sick of these hatchet jobs on long dead people. If you are not empathetic enough to put yourself in the position of a different society, you’re probably not empathic enough to criticize a persons character. Additionally, I don’t care if he was sexist. We don’t like Feynman because he was a feminist. We like Feynman because he led the charge in scientific discovery and progress. No one is perfect.

"The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there, don't be an ugly tourist. "

Re: Feynman: making the extraordinary look easy

#30

Post by m463 »

kaesar14 wrote: post #27
forgot_my_pwd wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>“I adopted the attitude that those bar girls are all bitches, that they aren’t worth anything, and all they’re in there for is to get you to buy them a drink, and they’re not going to give you a goddamn thing” Who hasn't said something of this sort or spirit at one time or another. Both men and women. Even if it wasn't part of some thought experiment, it's an irrelevant anecdote...

"I adopted the attitude that those bar boys are all assholes, that they aren't worth anything, and all they're in there for is to get in your pants, and they're not going to give you a goddamn thing" it's universal i think

Most people come around and realize that going to bars, where the common theme is selling you alcohol, might have results slightly different than polite society.
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