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French court upholds order limiting Amazon deliveries amid coronavirus risk

politico.eu

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Re: French court upholds order limiting Amazon deliveries amid coronavirus risk

#21

Post by cm2187 »

jefftk wrote: post #18
cm2187 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also what is odd is that we seem to have gone from “social distancing and lockdown to slow down the progression of the disease to within the capacity of the healthcare system” (flattening the curve) to “this virus is the new ebola and anyone who doesn’t have extra protection is putting their life at risk”. While at the same time the additional testing and antibody testing are confirming that the virus is marginally m…

> additional testing and antibody testing are confirming that the virus is marginally more lethal than the common flu 15,411 people have died of covid in NYC, though excess death numbers suggest that this is an undercount and it's more like 19,200. [1] The population of NYC is 8.4M. If everyone in NYC had been exposed this would give a death rate of ~0.18%, or ~0.23% after adjusting for excess deaths. Antibody tests…

If you cite numbers from Cuomo’s presentation why did you leave out his estimate of a mortality rate of circa 0.5% [1]?

[edit] also these rates are heavily skewed against 70+ years old and people with existing conditions. The risk to a random warehouse worker is really immaterial.

[1] https://youtu.be/TisDYYWJgBA?t=967

Re: French court upholds order limiting Amazon deliveries amid coronavirus risk

#22

Post by hedora »

Quanttek wrote: post #6
jefftk wrote: post #2

> the court of appeal extended the list of allowed items to include, among other things, high tech and IT goods. The court also significantly reduced the fines in case of non compliance from €1 million to €100,000 per unauthorized item "received, prepared and/or shipped." That still sounds high enough and vague enough that I expect Amazon will keep their French distribution centers closed for now.

How are you able to derive from the article's summary that this is vague? Beyond that, we all know that "vagueness" was just an Amazon pretext to force France to allow them to operate unchecked, i.e. without providing the demanded protection and deliver any item.

If I order a collectors item XBox controller, is that an IT or high tech item? (Maybe I’m using it for Skype with patients)

What about a kid’s “computer” toy, or a fart noise button?

What about a fidget spinner? A stress relief toy for autistic kids? A fidget spinner incorrectly marketed for autistic kids?

They have 10’s of millions of items, and for each one where their answer is different than the court’s, they get fined $100,000 * number of times they ship it.

Of course they can’t open the warehouse under these terms. Perhaps elected officials need to step in and pass a law that will invalidate this ruling.

Re: French court upholds order limiting Amazon deliveries amid coronavirus risk

#23

Post by newacct583 »

cm2187 wrote: post #17
jefftk wrote: post #2

> the court of appeal extended the list of allowed items to include, among other things, high tech and IT goods. The court also significantly reduced the fines in case of non compliance from €1 million to €100,000 per unauthorized item "received, prepared and/or shipped." That still sounds high enough and vague enough that I expect Amazon will keep their French distribution centers closed for now.

Also what is odd is that we seem to have gone from “social distancing and lockdown to slow down the progression of the disease to within the capacity of the healthcare system” (flattening the curve) to “this virus is the new ebola and anyone who doesn’t have extra protection is putting their life at risk”. While at the same time the additional testing and antibody testing are confirming that the virus is marginally m…

> the virus is marginally more lethal than the common flu

That's simply not true, and I don't understand how people keep repeating it. If you take the current New York study as the best available evidence, you get a symptomatic infection fatality rate of somewhere between 0.5% and 1.5%. That's an order of magnitude more dangerous than the flu.

Re: French court upholds order limiting Amazon deliveries amid coronavirus risk

#24

Post by eli »

cm2187 wrote: post #21
jefftk wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> additional testing and antibody testing are confirming that the virus is marginally more lethal than the common flu 15,411 people have died of covid in NYC, though excess death numbers suggest that this is an undercount and it's more like 19,200. [1] The population of NYC is 8.4M. If everyone in NYC had been exposed this would give a death rate of ~0.18%, or ~0.23% after adjusting for excess deaths. Antibody tests…

If you cite numbers from Cuomo’s presentation why did you leave out his estimate of a mortality rate of circa 0.5% [1]? [edit] also these rates are heavily skewed against 70+ years old and people with existing conditions. The risk to a random warehouse worker is really immaterial. [1] https://youtu.be/TisDYYWJgBA?t=967

Five times worse than the flu is “marginally” more?

Re: French court upholds order limiting Amazon deliveries amid coronavirus risk

#25

Post by scarface74 »

diih0auV wrote: post #7
DelightOne wrote: post #3

How do other deliverers handle this?

Note that what courts are blaming Amazon for is not to deliver unnecessary goods, but to not care enough for the security of their employees in their warehouses. So basically, it's not a problem for other delivery services who took stricter safety measures. If anything, telling them they can still continue deliver necessary goods is a bit lax, because their employees are not safer processing those. The Amazon answer…

No their answer is “Fine. We don’t like the law and we will shut down entirely instead of breaking the law”. That’s a more correct choice than what Uber does - flagrantly break the law.

Re: French court upholds order limiting Amazon deliveries amid coronavirus risk

#26

Post by cm2187 »

eli wrote: post #24
cm2187 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you cite numbers from Cuomo’s presentation why did you leave out his estimate of a mortality rate of circa 0.5% [1]? [edit] also these rates are heavily skewed against 70+ years old and people with existing conditions. The risk to a random warehouse worker is really immaterial. [1] https://youtu.be/TisDYYWJgBA?t=967

Five times worse than the flu is “marginally” more?

Five time a tiny number may still be a tiny number. The odd to win the UK lotto is one in 45m, the odd of winning Euromillion is one in 140m, the UK lotto is 3 times higher! Either way you won’t win either.

The odd of dying from this virus for a warehouse employee worker under 40 with no serious medical condition is not something they should worry about.

Re: French court upholds order limiting Amazon deliveries amid coronavirus risk

#28

Post by Quanttek »

hedora wrote: post #22
Quanttek wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you able to derive from the article's summary that this is vague? Beyond that, we all know that "vagueness" was just an Amazon pretext to force France to allow them to operate unchecked, i.e. without providing the demanded protection and deliver any item.

If I order a collectors item XBox controller, is that an IT or high tech item? (Maybe I’m using it for Skype with patients) What about a kid’s “computer” toy, or a fart noise button? What about a fidget spinner? A stress relief toy for autistic kids? A fidget spinner incorrectly marketed for autistic kids? They have 10’s of millions of items, and for each one where their answer is different than the court’s, they get…

You are completely ignoring my point: you can't go by a one-sentence summary in an article to infer that the Court's ruling on allowed items is vague. You'd actually need to look at the written deicision instead of spending your time pre-judging and coming up with a bunch of hypothetical examples.

Additionally, most goods sold are already classified as a certain type of item for regulatory purposes in the EU, so that work has already been done.

Re: French court upholds order limiting Amazon deliveries amid coronavirus risk

#29

Post by jefftk »

cm2187 wrote: post #21
jefftk wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> additional testing and antibody testing are confirming that the virus is marginally more lethal than the common flu 15,411 people have died of covid in NYC, though excess death numbers suggest that this is an undercount and it's more like 19,200. [1] The population of NYC is 8.4M. If everyone in NYC had been exposed this would give a death rate of ~0.18%, or ~0.23% after adjusting for excess deaths. Antibody tests…

If you cite numbers from Cuomo’s presentation why did you leave out his estimate of a mortality rate of circa 0.5% [1]? [edit] also these rates are heavily skewed against 70+ years old and people with existing conditions. The risk to a random warehouse worker is really immaterial. [1] https://youtu.be/TisDYYWJgBA?t=967

> If you cite numbers from Cuomo’s presentation...

I didn't watch Cuomo's presentation, and don't generally consume news via video. The two links I gave were to the NYT.

How do you get a mortality rate of 0.5% when you think 0.2% of the city has already died and 20% of the city has been exposed?

Re: French court upholds order limiting Amazon deliveries amid coronavirus risk

#30

Post by vegannet »

cm2187 wrote: post #26
eli wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Five times worse than the flu is “marginally” more?

Five time a tiny number may still be a tiny number. The odd to win the UK lotto is one in 45m, the odd of winning Euromillion is one in 140m, the UK lotto is 3 times higher! Either way you won’t win either. The odd of dying from this virus for a warehouse employee worker under 40 with no serious medical condition is not something they should worry about.

Yes but it’s very contagious, asymptomatic while contagious _and_ many people who aren’t at risk of death do come into contact with those who are. There are tens of millions of people in the UK who are vulnerable to severe consequences if they catch the disease.
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