The internet’s fifth man (2013) • Hacker News Board

Re: The internet’s fifth man (2013)

#21

Post by mannykannot » Sun, Apr 12, 2020, 3:23 PM UTC

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #19

mannykannot wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Writing concise prose is harder than the stream-of-consciousness style; while the former may start off as the latter, it takes a lot of editing to hone it into a sharp implement.

> Writing concise prose is harder than the stream-of-consciousness style... Totally true, but I think that's not what's happening. Yesterday an HN post was made about this https://lithub.com/the-wolves-of-stanislav-an-improbably-tru... It's carefully written to be like that, it's verbose by design, and I started skimming then closed it. I don't know why these timewaster articles are produced either, but it's not acci…

Perhaps there's a generation that has seen little else, and takes this to be the best or only way to write? Are we teaching people to write this way, with examinations having a time limit and where, in practice, the score correlates strongly with length? (Though that has been the case for a long time.) Is concise writing taken to be difficult-textbook style, and undesirable anywhere else?

Print media editors necessarily have to constrain length, and authors learned to write accordingly. Nowadays, a lot of writing is unconstrained either by physical limits or editors.

The specific example you give appears to be intentionally literary in intent, and so conciseness is not necessarily a prime virtue. When authors were paid by the word, prolixity was effectively encouraged, and this is obvious in some of Poe's work.

Re: The internet’s fifth man (2013)

#22

Post by gandalfian » Sun, Apr 12, 2020, 3:24 PM UTC

mannykannot wrote: post #17

The term 'fifth man', especially in a British publication, tends to suggest cold-war spying (Anthony Blunt was number 4. As it happens, he also received royal honors, in a time when his unmasking was a closely held secret within British intelligence.)

I thought the Beatles lots of people were said to be the "fifth" Beatle.

Re: The internet’s fifth man (2013)

#23

Post by apocalypstyx » Sun, Apr 12, 2020, 5:02 PM UTC

mannykannot wrote: post #21

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Writing concise prose is harder than the stream-of-consciousness style... Totally true, but I think that's not what's happening. Yesterday an HN post was made about this https://lithub.com/the-wolves-of-stanislav-an-improbably-tru... It's carefully written to be like that, it's verbose by design, and I started skimming then closed it. I don't know why these timewaster articles are produced either, but it's not acci…

Perhaps there's a generation that has seen little else, and takes this to be the best or only way to write? Are we teaching people to write this way, with examinations having a time limit and where, in practice, the score correlates strongly with length? (Though that has been the case for a long time.) Is concise writing taken to be difficult-textbook style, and undesirable anywhere else? Print media editors necessar…

Conciseness isn't necessarily a technological limitation. During the Victorian Era "triple-decker novels" were the in-thing.

Then there's the old aphorism: Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.

We want to claim that style obfuscates content. However, simplicity can also be a style that obfuscates content by its nature, just as much as any other, maybe sometimes more than any other.

Maybe the problem is we want to implicitly assume that communication styles are simply accretions around the true message which exists in non-physical being, and if we could just 'read minds', everything would be perfect, and as with Gnosticism, the 'Truth' gets weighed down with the sin of physicality (wrapped up in words in this case). So we try to be verbal ascetics, throwing our sentences, rather than our bodies, in the ovens to strip flesh. When in reality the words do not convey like boxcars carrying grain, but are the thing in themselves and solely such. So maybe this ends up back at a kind of radical materialism, a world were nothing is backed by the pure truth of God (or, in this case, 'pure information').

Re: The internet’s fifth man (2013)

#24

Post by reverendbyte » Sun, Apr 12, 2020, 5:17 PM UTC

There is the website http://www.pouzinsociety.org that covers new network architectures, also John Day quoted in the article has written a good book about networking history and future paths in “patterns in network architecture”

Re: The internet’s fifth man (2013)

#25

Post by mannykannot » Sun, Apr 12, 2020, 5:24 PM UTC

apocalypstyx wrote: post #23

mannykannot wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps there's a generation that has seen little else, and takes this to be the best or only way to write? Are we teaching people to write this way, with examinations having a time limit and where, in practice, the score correlates strongly with length? (Though that has been the case for a long time.) Is concise writing taken to be difficult-textbook style, and undesirable anywhere else? Print media editors necessar…

Conciseness isn't necessarily a technological limitation. During the Victorian Era "triple-decker novels" were the in-thing. Then there's the old aphorism: Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. We want to claim that style obfuscates content. However, simplicity can also be a style that obfuscates content by its nature, just as much as any other, maybe sometimes more than any other. Maybe t…

> Conciseness isn't necessarily a technological limitation.

Of course not, but I doubt that it is entirely coincidental that the article here is from a well-established print journal.

> However, simplicity can also be a style that obfuscates content by its nature.

Occasionally, in response to an editorial mandate, I have condensed something to the point where even I have difficulty following it after some time has passed. The point here, however, is that this article is both concise and clear.

> When in reality the words do not convey like boxcars carrying grain...

Indeed; if they did, style would not be an issue, and grammar would not be a thing.

>... but are the thing in themselves and solely such.

Words in themselves are nothing without an accepted vocabulary.

Re: The internet’s fifth man (2013)

#26

Post by convolvatron » Sun, Apr 12, 2020, 5:35 PM UTC

unsurprisingly, he suffered politcal headwinds from the connection-oriented telco people. i wonder how visible that religious war is through the mists of time.

how much duplication of effort and fighting at cross purposes .. I guess up until the failure of ATM and eventual submission to voice over ip.

pretty sad how much effort was expended on things like gossip, and how many standards were warped in an attempt at reconciliation.

Re: The internet’s fifth man (2013)

#27

Post by rmellow » Sun, Apr 12, 2020, 7:49 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #18

rmellow wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This was one of the best articles I've read lately, it's not filled with empty prose as is the style today. Agreed! Why is that the style today? I've heard it has something to do with SEO but I'm unsure how, or if there are other reasons. This trend makes my skimming habit so much worse, because it actually justifies skipping ahead to meaningful words.

I doubt SEO which, in addition to metadata and so forth, is mostly about using terminology that people search for. A lot of people naturally ramble and there are also certainly quality magazines that go for a longer more literary style (e.g. The New Yorker) that you apparently don't care for. The Economist, while it likes its clever turns of phrase, especially in headlines, is both well-written/edited and direct.

The fact you pointed out the New Yorker makes me happy I've expressed my thoughts well.

I had exactly that example in mind.

Re: The internet’s fifth man (2013)

#28

Post by rmellow » Sun, Apr 12, 2020, 7:58 PM UTC

mannykannot wrote: post #21

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Writing concise prose is harder than the stream-of-consciousness style... Totally true, but I think that's not what's happening. Yesterday an HN post was made about this https://lithub.com/the-wolves-of-stanislav-an-improbably-tru... It's carefully written to be like that, it's verbose by design, and I started skimming then closed it. I don't know why these timewaster articles are produced either, but it's not acci…

Perhaps there's a generation that has seen little else, and takes this to be the best or only way to write? Are we teaching people to write this way, with examinations having a time limit and where, in practice, the score correlates strongly with length? (Though that has been the case for a long time.) Is concise writing taken to be difficult-textbook style, and undesirable anywhere else? Print media editors necessar…

It's more than expressing a thought with more words than necessary: so many articles start with something along the likes of

"it was a sunny May afternoon in the office of Dr. Whoever, where the cobblestones in the entrance glinted the fading sunlight. When Dr. Whoever was a boy, his father would take him out fishing..." ... and rambles on with meaningless details, containing perhaps a handful of passages in the article that are actually relevant to what the title promised me.

Perhaps a clearer example is when you find a recipe online. You will find pages of how the recipe has been in the family for ages, and how the author's family is delighted with it, and the innumerous and unproven health benefits it has, and how it's so easy to make, etc. The actual recipe is half a page.

Re: The internet’s fifth man (2013)

#29

Post by mellosouls » Sun, Apr 12, 2020, 9:33 PM UTC

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #19

mannykannot wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Writing concise prose is harder than the stream-of-consciousness style; while the former may start off as the latter, it takes a lot of editing to hone it into a sharp implement.

> Writing concise prose is harder than the stream-of-consciousness style... Totally true, but I think that's not what's happening. Yesterday an HN post was made about this https://lithub.com/the-wolves-of-stanislav-an-improbably-tru... It's carefully written to be like that, it's verbose by design, and I started skimming then closed it. I don't know why these timewaster articles are produced either, but it's not acci…

If I've read you correctly, you've dismissed a generally well regarded literary writer as an author of a "timewaster article".

You may be correct, but considering the author's long career and standing, you should consider the possibility that the issue here is your personal taste rather than the merits of the writer.

https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Auster

Re: The internet’s fifth man (2013)

#30

Post by ghaff » Sun, Apr 12, 2020, 9:37 PM UTC

rmellow wrote: post #28

mannykannot wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps there's a generation that has seen little else, and takes this to be the best or only way to write? Are we teaching people to write this way, with examinations having a time limit and where, in practice, the score correlates strongly with length? (Though that has been the case for a long time.) Is concise writing taken to be difficult-textbook style, and undesirable anywhere else? Print media editors necessar…

It's more than expressing a thought with more words than necessary: so many articles start with something along the likes of "it was a sunny May afternoon in the office of Dr. Whoever, where the cobblestones in the entrance glinted the fading sunlight. When Dr. Whoever was a boy, his father would take him out fishing..." ... and rambles on with meaningless details, containing perhaps a handful of passages in the arti…

And generally speaking I appreciate the context for the recipe. It's why people still buy cookbooks these days and subscribe to the (sadly) diminished number of cooking magazines that are really about food and travel. (RIP Gourmet.) If I'm really only looking for a recipe it's really not that hard to spend 10 seconds scrolling down.