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Fatal toxicity of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine with metformin in mice [pdf]

biorxiv.org

21–30 of 30 posts

Re: Fatal toxicity of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine with metformin in mice [pdf]

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean it made you feel brain dead?

Methotrexate (Sarcoidosis) here, not hydroxychloroquine, both are DMARDs. "Brain fog" is a more commonly used term, although no doubt people experience different things and would describe them differently. For me, it's a weird feeling of vagueness, and to what extent varies significantly. Sometimes it's hard to focus and do work, but not always. Usually it's just like everything is sort of "passing me by". You wouldn…

interesting. do they know why it's happening ?

Re: Fatal toxicity of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine with metformin in mice [pdf]

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean specifically with regards to treating covid-19, not for other purposes. Sorry if that wasn’t clear. I didn’t say there’s a study that says hydroxychloroquine combined with arithromycin is an ineffective combination, but that unless there’s a scientific reason to assume something will increase the effectiveness of such a possibly lethal drug without exacerbating its negative side effects then there is no reason…

Can you cite it not working for covid-19 in vivo? From what I've found there are early stage trials showing success, plus a few larger anecdotal populations showing bigger success, but nothing that scientifically definitively concludes either way.

Yes, there simply hasn’t been enough time for proper studies to have been made one way or the other [0]. The only “study” showing in vivo efficacy is pretty much a bunch of bunk and has huge issues. It did not report on actual treatment outcomes but only on nasal swab results without a control arm, never mind that covid-19 has been demonstrated to move from upper respiratory down into the lungs in most cases that progress to pneumonia or respiratory distress anyway (so a nasal swab says nothing and can come back negative while the patient is dying of respiratory failure).

[0]: https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/chloroquine-and-hydroxychloroq...

Re: Fatal toxicity of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine with metformin in mice [pdf]

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you cite it not working for covid-19 in vivo? From what I've found there are early stage trials showing success, plus a few larger anecdotal populations showing bigger success, but nothing that scientifically definitively concludes either way.

Yes, there simply hasn’t been enough time for proper studies to have been made one way or the other [0]. The only “study” showing in vivo efficacy is pretty much a bunch of bunk and has huge issues. It did not report on actual treatment outcomes but only on nasal swab results without a control arm, never mind that covid-19 has been demonstrated to move from upper respiratory down into the lungs in most cases that pro…

That means your claim that it “only works in vitro” is false, though. The right claim would be “we don’t know yet”.

Also you do a lot of work to make it sound like a foregone conclusion it doesn’t work (appeals to authority in “anyone paying attention”).

The problem is there is now a lot of anecdotal evidence of it working from good sources (teams of doctors on frontlines from around the world). So really you can’t appeal to anyone paying attention.

Re: Fatal toxicity of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine with metformin in mice [pdf]

#24
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Methotrexate (Sarcoidosis) here, not hydroxychloroquine, both are DMARDs. "Brain fog" is a more commonly used term, although no doubt people experience different things and would describe them differently. For me, it's a weird feeling of vagueness, and to what extent varies significantly. Sometimes it's hard to focus and do work, but not always. Usually it's just like everything is sort of "passing me by". You wouldn…

interesting. do they know why it's happening ?

I'm actually not sure, but it's one of the most common side effects. These are pretty intense drugs. Methotrexate quite literally stops cell division; in much higher doses than I take, it's used to abort nonviable pregnancies.

EDIT: I should probably note that stopping cell division isn't the primary mechanism by which Methotrexate treats Sarcoidosis. You basically take Methotrexate then 24+ hours later counteract it with folic acid. They actually don't know how it works!

In my case it probably doesn't help that "brain fog" is also a side effect of Sarcoidosis itself; I mean that's obviously pretty minor in comparison to the fact if left unchecked it'd destroy my lungs.

Re: Fatal toxicity of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine with metformin in mice [pdf]

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there simply hasn’t been enough time for proper studies to have been made one way or the other [0]. The only “study” showing in vivo efficacy is pretty much a bunch of bunk and has huge issues. It did not report on actual treatment outcomes but only on nasal swab results without a control arm, never mind that covid-19 has been demonstrated to move from upper respiratory down into the lungs in most cases that pro…

That means your claim that it “only works in vitro” is false, though. The right claim would be “we don’t know yet”. Also you do a lot of work to make it sound like a foregone conclusion it doesn’t work (appeals to authority in “anyone paying attention”). The problem is there is now a lot of anecdotal evidence of it working from good sources (teams of doctors on frontlines from around the world). So really you can’t a…

Yes, so far as we know.

Re: Fatal toxicity of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine with metformin in mice [pdf]

#27
post #16

So much effort is going in to the propaganda war against Hydroxychloroquine, it's really terrifying to watch.

""" Guided by the principle ofprimum non nocere (first do no harm), we report a cautionary note on the potential fatal toxicity of chloroquine (CQ) or hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) in combination with anti-diabetic drug metformin. We observed that the combination of CQ or HCQ and metformin, which were used in our studies as potential anti-cancer drugs, killed 30-40% of mice. While our observations in mice may not translate to toxicity in humans, the reports that CQ or HCQ has anti-COVID-19 activity [1], the use of CQ resulting in toxicity and at least one death, and the recent Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) for CQ and HCQ by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) prompted our report. Here we report the lethality of CQ or HCQ in combination with metformin as a warning of its potential serious clinical toxicity. We hope that our report will be helpful to stimulate pharmacovigilance and monitoring of adverse drug reactions with the use of CQ or HCQ, particularly with metformin. """

Maybe just read the introduction instead of writting this kind of complotist nonsense? I know that's not the first thing to read in a usual, well-written scientific paper, but there is a lot of papers about covid19 everyday and clinical papers are weird anyway.

HCQ enters trial testing and if we can reduce the number of trial death due to wrong medicamental interactions, it will probably boost the survival of tested people using HCQ, so even if a conspiracy exist, you should be happy that paper like this exist, no?

A thing i saw that works against a conspiracy against HCQ is that on french and US website, everyone is talking about HCQ, well or not, but a lot of other, poorer countries put their hope on interferon (as i do: i take chlorphetamine and other antihistamin drugs that can cause tachycardia especially in spring/summer, and i have arythmia => i'd like to avoid another drug with heart-related secondary effect, my kidney and may spleen are in perfect condition, i'd rather ruin them)

If i couldn't read spanish, i wouldn't even know about interferon tbh, it's much more promising that HCQ: like HCQ it works in vitro against HIV, but unlike CA that agravate AIDS, interferon works in vivo too. Here an AFP article about interferon and sras-cov2 (spanish, works with google translate: https://factual.afp.com/el-antiviral-cubano-interferon-alfa-...)

Re: Fatal toxicity of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine with metformin in mice [pdf]

#28

I don’t see how any of this is coming as a surprise to anyone, or even why people are bothering (questionable science behind the choloroquine paper aside, even). This is a comment I posted to HN three weeks ago, when I was pretty sure (but unfortunately wrong!) that the suggested chloroquine dosage for purportedly treating covid-19 was being reported in the wrong units because it was so high, using only the informati…

The half lives of these medications are very long, 30+ days I believe. This makes a large dose for a short number of days more reasonable than at first glance.

Re: Fatal toxicity of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine with metformin in mice [pdf]

#29

I don’t see how any of this is coming as a surprise to anyone, or even why people are bothering (questionable science behind the choloroquine paper aside, even). This is a comment I posted to HN three weeks ago, when I was pretty sure (but unfortunately wrong!) that the suggested chloroquine dosage for purportedly treating covid-19 was being reported in the wrong units because it was so high, using only the informati…

The half lives of these medications are very long, 30+ days I believe. This makes a large dose for a short number of days more reasonable than at first glance.

But the recommendation is for a high dose once or twice a day for a week +, which can easily add up.

Re: Fatal toxicity of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine with metformin in mice [pdf]

#30

That's really bad news for diabetic mice that have contracted the COVID-19... As far as humans are concerned - who knows...

Chloroquine COVID19 trial has been discontinued in Sweden due to severe side effect, most notably seizure and vision problems in patients.

Original article: https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/carl-40-fick-kramp-och-syn-...

I expect this will appear in international media soon, if it's true. Note that I don't speak Swedish and I used an online translating tool to read the article.

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