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We all wear tinfoil hats now

thenewatlantis.com

21–30 of 145 posts

Re: We all wear tinfoil hats now

#21
It's not a very good article and others have criticized it fairly, but I just want to harp on the constant degradation of anything even remotely resembling "conspiracy theory" as innately batshit crazy, delusion, and based on some on some other reason than any form of logic (as the author attempts towards the end dismissing it as entertainment). Of course those versions of "conspiracy theory" exist, but there is a vast and lengthy history of the world chock full of evidence that conspiracies of various types and degrees have been sucessfully (and sometimes not) executed regularly. I have taken to Michael Parenti's labeling of those who constantly take this approach as "coincidence theorists", and in particular his criticism that incompetence theories distract from proper understanding and analysis of malice.

>In retrospect, the entire story starts to look like a classic conspiracy theory, attributing complex, multi-layered events to the secret machinations of shadowy behind-the-scenes operators deploying cutting-edge technology.

As if this is so far fetched. I can name countless cases where this is exactly what has happened!

> “technical delusion” — a term that may encompass any and all delusions about technology, but usually designates a belief in machines that can control, surveil, harass, and deceive humans.

Machines and technology enable and empower the humans with the desire to do these things. The technology of the authors over-abused reference of James Matthews may have been fanciful then, but the things that concern those with "technical delusion" today exist in reality.

The author even later admits that there is a basis in reality of "elites were secretly manipulating political events behind the scenes".

>Suspicions regarding the hyper-concentration of wealth and power have attained broad bipartisan currency — in part because they are grounded in reality.

I've been down so many rabbit holes and have read so many conspiracy theories I will admit some of them border on psychosis manifesting, but I have also found the ones that aren't, and the constant attempt to label all or almost all of them under the label of psychosis or some variant itself reeks of conspiracy. The irony being that the oft-abused term itself was largely pushed into modern parlance by the CIA seeking to discredit critics of the Warren commission[1], or for example the 2008 Cass Sunstein paper [2] prior to his appointment as the head of White House Information affairs that called for cognitive infiltration of discussion boards et al.

I could blather on about this kind of out in the open subversion for a while, but that's not the point. The real point is that it is a fact that conspiracies are real and that they happen rather frequently, even if not always on the scale or level of impact often purported by those in that realm of discussion. Another note that I have tried to emphasize is that it is important to distinguish the type of logic used to reach conclusions. We generally should always prefer deductive logic, which is evidence based, but in many of the topics discussed there simply is no or is a dearth of evidence to be had, which is where the importance of inductive logic comes into place.

Unlike the authors proposition that those who think some conspiracies to be true must be rooted in anything but truth, my anecdotal experience has been from starting with only one maxim. That I would rather know the truth than the lie, in particular the ugly truth over the beautiful lie. What started out for me just as the meager attempts of a USMC Iraq combat vet to understand his own place in what could truly be called a vast conspiracy (the war), became a lifelong journey of transformation in understanding the bigger picture of the realities of this world. Let me tell you, it is so much more conspiratorial than most would ever want to know (and I base this upon good, strong evidence, and where that is lacking, good inductive logic). I think most people honestly would prefer the beautiful lie. My problem always has been and probably always will be when those who prefer the lie try to tell me the lie is truth, and then attack when incredulity inevitably rises as a reaction.

[1]https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Document:Countering_Criticism_of...

[2]https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1084585

Re: We all wear tinfoil hats now

#22

Cultural authority got decentralized over centuries, from church to bible to traditional media to new media, where everybody can be an author and become an authority, gain a fellowship. Peoples obedience to authority didn't change much in general, it's an instinct for survival, it makes the surrounding society and feedback from a society more predictable. Online bubbles are often subcultures that predate the web, wha…

this reminds me of an interview i saw on the news with an elderly british voter who was adamant that she will vote Tory as they are bound to win. it's almost like she saw her vote as a bet and she wanted to get it right.

this interview moved me significantly towards being sceptical of current democracies

Re: We all wear tinfoil hats now

#23
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Careful, the hammer of logic is quite small. It is a mighty but very restricted tool. Cambridge Analytica was made responsible for large scale social media manipulation. I don't think logical positivism lets you confirm this widely believed story. At least not without even identifying the type of manipulation. What kind of message was employed? Who and how many were targeted? Did it really change the opinions of peop…

Wouldn't a rational society also deal with likely and possible scenarios? Targeted advertisement in social media is seen as something that works, because someone has a huge interest in convincing someone else that it does (although I wouldn't be surprised if it really works). And if you move conventional targeted ads to the political space you get Cambridge analytica. And a rational society could have multiple proble…

> Wouldn't a rational society also deal with likely and possible scenarios?

I have yet to find a good way of phrasing this, but there is the phrase "justified true belief" that captures a whole discussion in philosophy on knowledge. However, that debate only covers the past and present, it can't cover the future. Perhaps what I'm looking for is something like "forward-looking statements" in the SEC sense - statements about the future which are inherently probabilistic, but the statement-maker has a responsibility to be truthful and advance a reasoned argument for their plausibility.

Re: We all wear tinfoil hats now

#24
post #2

This is an extremely one-sided and biased article. Basically, it presumes that manipulating public opinion begins with Cambridge Analytica, being completely oblivious to the excesive lies, public shaming, character assasinations, alarmism that the agents of the "solid establishment consensus" (The Guardian, NYT, BBC, Deutsche Welle, etc) routinely perform.

Comparing a newspaper with Cambridge Analytica is simply absurd.

Newspaper will always have some sort of bias because they are written by human beings and the bias is harmless as long as it's understood and recognized by the readership.

Facebook manipulation, OTOH, is completely stealth because each reader gets a completely custom newsfeed.

Re: We all wear tinfoil hats now

#25
I strongly urge all people who wish to be informed citizens to consume news sources from diverse sources. Selection bias of what events get covered is a huge source of political spin, and using diverse sources is the only way to eliminate selection bias.

Consider any statement with morally-significant wording to be the spin, and whatever is left over to be the facts on the ground worth considering. The vast majority of the time, reliable news sources get the facts on the ground right and, and only introduce spin with the moral phrasings and choosing what to omit. This is still true if the source is from the evil other party, and only starts disintegrating once you really get to the fringes.

Re: We all wear tinfoil hats now

#26
post #2

This is an extremely one-sided and biased article. Basically, it presumes that manipulating public opinion begins with Cambridge Analytica, being completely oblivious to the excesive lies, public shaming, character assasinations, alarmism that the agents of the "solid establishment consensus" (The Guardian, NYT, BBC, Deutsche Welle, etc) routinely perform.

Comparing a newspaper with Cambridge Analytica is simply absurd. Newspaper will always have some sort of bias because they are written by human beings and the bias is harmless as long as it's understood and recognized by the readership. Facebook manipulation, OTOH, is completely stealth because each reader gets a completely custom newsfeed.

> Newspaper will always have some sort of bias because they are written by human beings and the bias is harmless as long as it's understood and recognised by the readership.

I would agree if there wasn't coordinated hit pieces between newspapers or if newspapers didn't appear to collectively ignore certain pertinent events.

Re: We all wear tinfoil hats now

#28
post #6

Bleurgh. I don't like the conflation of unsupported-by-evidence talk of telepathy and that kind of "mind control" with the heavily-funded and somewhat evidenced effect of targeted political advertising. It acts to discredit conversation about the latter by conflating it with the former. They even manage to quote Foucault on the process of labelling people as delusional in order to exclude them from politics. I hate t…

"Somewhat evidenced" seems like an overstatement to be honest.

Re: We all wear tinfoil hats now

#29
post #22

Cultural authority got decentralized over centuries, from church to bible to traditional media to new media, where everybody can be an author and become an authority, gain a fellowship. Peoples obedience to authority didn't change much in general, it's an instinct for survival, it makes the surrounding society and feedback from a society more predictable. Online bubbles are often subcultures that predate the web, wha…

this reminds me of an interview i saw on the news with an elderly british voter who was adamant that she will vote Tory as they are bound to win. it's almost like she saw her vote as a bet and she wanted to get it right. this interview moved me significantly towards being sceptical of current democracies

Most people don't care about politics that much, they vote more or less for a continuation of what's currently going on with an occasional minor course correction one way or another.

I imagine that was the case with that lady, didn't care about politics, wanted things to be more or less the same, votes Conservative and when put on the spot doesn't really have a good explanation as to why.

The most useful thing about democracy is the ability to kick people out, not necessarily choose the best person for the job.

Re: We all wear tinfoil hats now

#30
post #2

This is an extremely one-sided and biased article. Basically, it presumes that manipulating public opinion begins with Cambridge Analytica, being completely oblivious to the excesive lies, public shaming, character assasinations, alarmism that the agents of the "solid establishment consensus" (The Guardian, NYT, BBC, Deutsche Welle, etc) routinely perform.

What bothers me the most about the CA-Stole-Elections drumbeat is how devoid these kinds of articles are with evidence. They don't qualify which or how many votes were ultimately changed, but it's a well enough hypothesis so writer after writer keeps making bolder and broader claims about CA's influence.

Now how many votes are changed due to the media's overwhelming (90%+) negativity about Brexit and Trump? If CA swayed any votes at all, then our media is actively and aggressively engaging in much worse. To use an analogy, CA might have been a car bomb, but the ongoing bias in the media is a continuous artillery shelling of the public's perception of politics.

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