The UK’s points-based immigration system will scare off tech founders • Hacker News Board

Re: The UK’s points-based immigration system will scare off tech founders

#21

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Thu, Feb 27, 2020, 1:43 PM UTC

phenkdo wrote: post #20

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simple, the market decides that. If you have a job opening and nobody from the EU applies for your job at your advertised salary then your're underpaying and then arguing in favor of immigration visas in order to fill in your positions means you're exploiting. If I'm trying to rent out a place and nobody wants it, then I need to adjust my price expectations if I want to rent it.

It's not "simple", and it's definitely not "the market". It's the market as _you would like it to be_ , for salary-gouging. I am one of the "evil" business owners you speak of, and there is no way I will pay the exorbitant salary expectations from (mostly) undeserving people. I would much rather outsource and hire people in Ukraine, Russia, etc. Sorry to break your heart, but If I pay $x then I would expect $ x+ valu…

You misunderstood, I wan't talking about outsourcing which you're fully allowed to do as you please, but about businesses practicing wage dumping here via shady immigration practices masquerading as a benefit to everyone with good PR.

Re: The UK’s points-based immigration system will scare off tech founders

#22

Post by collyw » Thu, Feb 27, 2020, 1:46 PM UTC

phenkdo wrote: post #20

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simple, the market decides that. If you have a job opening and nobody from the EU applies for your job at your advertised salary then your're underpaying and then arguing in favor of immigration visas in order to fill in your positions means you're exploiting. If I'm trying to rent out a place and nobody wants it, then I need to adjust my price expectations if I want to rent it.

It's not "simple", and it's definitely not "the market". It's the market as _you would like it to be_ , for salary-gouging. I am one of the "evil" business owners you speak of, and there is no way I will pay the exorbitant salary expectations from (mostly) undeserving people. I would much rather outsource and hire people in Ukraine, Russia, etc. Sorry to break your heart, but If I pay $x then I would expect $ x+ valu…

That's fine if your business can survive like that. In my experience outsourced projects (to companies in Sweden for a lot of money, or companies in Ukraine for what I assume is a fair bit less pay) the quality has been pretty poor. Maybe it will work if you are doing something simple, or is very well defined.

Re: The UK’s points-based immigration system will scare off tech founders

#23

Post by Zenst » Thu, Feb 27, 2020, 2:45 PM UTC

so_tired wrote: post #19

Zenst wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spot on - more so Estonia is by far one of the best tech hubs in Europe with many brilliantly staff that speak English and brexit or not, would be my choice over London for any EU tech startup brexit or not. [EDIT ADD] https://startupestonia.ee/why-estonia well worth reading that and shows how Estonia would be the best choice for any EU startup anyhow

Can you give some salaries for hiring tech workers? 2-3 years experience, web front end and/or B2C marketing

I can't as not out there myself, equally you need to factor in cost of living as 40k a year in a city that costs 20k a year to live is worse of than 27k a year in a city that costs 5k to live. Then taxes..... many factors.

Equally, front end and marketing are not my area's.

https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/estonia-front-end-devel... may be of some help for you though.

Re: The UK’s points-based immigration system will scare off tech founders

#24

Post by Zenst » Thu, Feb 27, 2020, 2:55 PM UTC

cs02rm0 wrote: post #11

With so few applications, I'm not sure it's a big deal. I'm not sure the UK really has a Silicon Valley pull factor (I'm aware of what's been dubbed Silicon Roundabout). Government body endorsement sounds like a terrible idea for discerning viable startups, but I guess it renders the whole thing pointless if anyone can apply through the same route. The changes around how IR35's being addressed seem a much bigger issu…

Yes IR35 has been a PITA for contracting in tech for a while and it is about to get a lot worse come April. Heck, it will near on kill of a lot of contracting avenues.

That and IR35 effectively treats you as an employee with all the associated tax aspects and none of the perks - no holiday pay, no sickness pay, other company aspects.

Which is irksome given how if your building a house instead of software, you get special NI perks and other aspects....

Sad cruz is that tech is a new trade in the grand scale of things, no unions or the like that other established industries have and equally - when the certifications in tech are so dynamic and change each year compared to those other longer established industries like construction, accounting.... there are times you kinda feel shafted.

Which is why I got out of contracting last century, then ironically joined a company working on a project that ended up busting 80 hour weeks and only paid core hours and the ew contractors we had, well they got their hourly flesh.

But hey, being good at tech, don't mean you're good at business, or indeed negotiations for remunerations - I know I'm terrible upon the later and sold myself short too many times. Sure you learn, but it is one of my kryptonite area's.

Re: The UK’s points-based immigration system will scare off tech founders

#25

Post by phenkdo » Thu, Feb 27, 2020, 3:02 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #21

phenkdo wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not "simple", and it's definitely not "the market". It's the market as _you would like it to be_ , for salary-gouging. I am one of the "evil" business owners you speak of, and there is no way I will pay the exorbitant salary expectations from (mostly) undeserving people. I would much rather outsource and hire people in Ukraine, Russia, etc. Sorry to break your heart, but If I pay $x then I would expect $ x+ valu…

You misunderstood, I wan't talking about outsourcing which you're fully allowed to do as you please, but about businesses practicing wage dumping here via shady immigration practices masquerading as a benefit to everyone with good PR.

What you call "wage dumping" is what I would call wage extortion & salary gouging, borne out of good old entitlement arrogance.

Sauce for the goose == sauce for the gander.

Re: The UK’s points-based immigration system will scare off tech founders

#26

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Thu, Feb 27, 2020, 3:16 PM UTC

phenkdo wrote: post #25

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You misunderstood, I wan't talking about outsourcing which you're fully allowed to do as you please, but about businesses practicing wage dumping here via shady immigration practices masquerading as a benefit to everyone with good PR.

What you call "wage dumping" is what I would call wage extortion & salary gouging, borne out of good old entitlement arrogance. Sauce for the goose == sauce for the gander.

Again, I see no problem with your approach. One country gets a new employer on the market and another country looses one that's focused on race to the bottom. Win-Win. :)

Re: The UK’s points-based immigration system will scare off tech founders

#27

Post by yardie » Thu, Feb 27, 2020, 9:17 PM UTC

Zenst wrote: post #18

yardie wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a former non-EU visa holder that was not my impression at all. Cheap eastern EU nationals is a thing. It's just not a viable thing. What you get is a bunch of EU nationals recruited from Hungary, Rommania, and Poland who will work for your underpaying position for 3-6 months. Then, once they qualify for unemployment benefits they'll leave for a job where the pay is better suited. This underpaying of EU nationals r…

From the visa aspect, what is your view upon that with the changes - does the new system seem easier to you for non-EU nationals to actually get a visa?

I think there has been a ratcheting up of visa requirements for all non-UK nationals. The nationalists have successfully quashed immigration from developing countries first, followed by commonwealth countries, and now through Brexit EU countries.

Re: The UK’s points-based immigration system will scare off tech founders

#28

Post by aogl » Fri, Feb 28, 2020, 1:45 AM UTC

Zenst wrote: post #24

cs02rm0 wrote: post #11

With so few applications, I'm not sure it's a big deal. I'm not sure the UK really has a Silicon Valley pull factor (I'm aware of what's been dubbed Silicon Roundabout). Government body endorsement sounds like a terrible idea for discerning viable startups, but I guess it renders the whole thing pointless if anyone can apply through the same route. The changes around how IR35's being addressed seem a much bigger issu…

Yes IR35 has been a PITA for contracting in tech for a while and it is about to get a lot worse come April. Heck, it will near on kill of a lot of contracting avenues. That and IR35 effectively treats you as an employee with all the associated tax aspects and none of the perks - no holiday pay, no sickness pay, other company aspects. Which is irksome given how if your building a house instead of software, you get spe…

I'm still a contractor in tech in London. IR35 is, as you said, a real PITA!

The level of change is just quite dramatic, and the returns are not at all favourable in any comparison.

I have been doing this for a long time now, many many years and have worked on many projects, in many companies. There is definitely a massive benefit of flexible and highly skilled developers for companies that need projects off the ground quickly. I am very interested to see how this single change alters what many companies are able to push out in the UK post April.

While there appear to still be the potential for Outside IR35 contracts, I have many colleagues that are sat on the sidelines already, waiting.

Re: The UK’s points-based immigration system will scare off tech founders

#29

Post by thu2111 » Fri, Feb 28, 2020, 8:46 AM UTC

joscas wrote: post #6

Incorporating a startup in the UK becomes much less attractive after Brexit because EU markets are not easily accessible anymore. I think EU founders will take into account this first. If you add paperwork on top of that I don't see why founders wouldn't just incorporate let's say in Estonia and just travel to London on a tourist Visa to look for funding if needed.

Not easily accessible?

Tell that to all the US firms that dominate European markets. Both software and services are tariff free under WTO rules. It would be no harder for British companies than American companies. Perhaps easier - there's a reason Barnier et al keep freaking out about "level playing fields".