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Serfs of Academe

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Re: Serfs of Academe

#21

Post by nradov »

sykick wrote: post #17
seibelj wrote: post #5

When I was 19 I worked at Dominos Pizza, and they offered me a management track position. I would attend Dominos University, a management training course where they would teach me the art of pizza restaurant management and advanced pizza making skills. The starting salary for management back in 2007 was $38k per year with 10% bonus, and included health insurance, paid sick leave, etc. I say this because - why do thes…

I understand the gist of what you are saying but consider this. Are there enough pizza management positions to absorb the number of adjuncts? I don't think so and I know you were just using Dominos as an example. If the set of all underpaid, abusive adjuncts suddenly entered the marketplace what consequences would there be? Are there enough positions? Would more less intelligent people be unemployed or have their wag…

There are about 700,000 adjuncts and 60,000 pizzerias in the US.

Re: Serfs of Academe

#22

Post by kiliantics »

gnicholas wrote: post #15

A warning seen on Twitter today says: don't enter a PhD program unless you are given full funding (or have a trust fund). Honestly, even if you get full funding, you should consider the opportunity cost. https://twitter.com/megankatenelson/status/12319359557010513...

I had all tuition covered and a guaranteed stipend for 4 years. I was also assured that there would be other ways to replace the stipend after those 4 years, with a last resort being to sustain myself by TAing classes. In the end, I took 7 years, largely because there was no money outside of TA work and that took up so much time I had serious difficulty maintaining a good rhythm to make progress in my research. Not to mention that the money was so little I had a lot of extra stress in life just making ends meet. And as someone in STEM, I was easily on the more comfortable end of the spectrum as regards funding opportunities and teaching responsibilities.

I am therefore very excited by the unionising efforts of graduate students across the US in recent years. I find it particularly admirable, given how much extra time and effort such organising takes and which the students are bringing forth in full force despite all of their day-to-day burdens. It's far from an easy task, as the administrations of these institutions are definitely prepared to play dirty.

Re: Serfs of Academe

#23

Post by Merrill »

seibelj wrote: post #5

When I was 19 I worked at Dominos Pizza, and they offered me a management track position. I would attend Dominos University, a management training course where they would teach me the art of pizza restaurant management and advanced pizza making skills. The starting salary for management back in 2007 was $38k per year with 10% bonus, and included health insurance, paid sick leave, etc. I say this because - why do thes…

PhD students tend to adopt the value system of their advisors mentors and others at their university.

Advisors value academic careers, partly because that is usually the only thing that they know, and look down on PhDs that go into industry or change fields as failures.

Advisors are also judged on the academic success of their graduates, who ideally go on to famous careers at notable universities. There is a branch of academic politics that governs how advisors place their best students where they will reflect well on them.

The net result is that graduate students have few mentors advising them on the possibilities outside of academe. The "failures" are left to make it on their own.

Re: Serfs of Academe

#24

Post by madcaptenor »

gnicholas wrote: post #15

A warning seen on Twitter today says: don't enter a PhD program unless you are given full funding (or have a trust fund). Honestly, even if you get full funding, you should consider the opportunity cost. https://twitter.com/megankatenelson/status/12319359557010513...

That was standard advice fifteen years ago, when I was in this situation. I imagine it's more true today.

(I'd argue that even if you have a trust fund, you shouldn't go if they won't fund you. The not funding you is a vote of no confidence in you.)

Re: Serfs of Academe

#25

Post by gnicholas »

madcaptenor wrote: post #24
gnicholas wrote: post #15

A warning seen on Twitter today says: don't enter a PhD program unless you are given full funding (or have a trust fund). Honestly, even if you get full funding, you should consider the opportunity cost. https://twitter.com/megankatenelson/status/12319359557010513...

That was standard advice fifteen years ago, when I was in this situation. I imagine it's more true today. (I'd argue that even if you have a trust fund, you shouldn't go if they won't fund you. The not funding you is a vote of no confidence in you.)

> even if you have a trust fund, you shouldn't go if they won't fund you

Yeah, but perhaps TFKs just want the cred of having a PhD, and don't actually care that they won't likely be able to do anything with it afterward.

Re: Serfs of Academe

#26

Post by otoburb »

sykick wrote: post #19
seibelj wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There aren't enough pizza management positions but unemployment is at an all-time low - even if adjuncts find manual labor beneath them, there are plenty of restaurants, paralegal, office labor, and other semi-skilled / unskilled jobs that they would be fit for. My critique is that adjuncts see university employment as the One True Path when there are a multitude of other careers available, if only they would give up…

Yes, I understand that to be your point and I overall agree with it. However if all of those people tried to gain employment elsewhere there are side effects. A friend of mine with a Ph.D. in math and a Master's degree in electrical engineering works in industry in data science. He once told me that he would not want to hire people with a Ph.D. to do non research. He said they just have a hard time fitting into an en…

>>A friend of mine with a Ph.D. in math and a Master's degree in electrical engineering works in industry in data science. He once told me that he would not want to hire people with a Ph.D. to do non research.

Does this mean that he considers himself an outlier (assuming he's also doing non-research activities), or that he feels that PhD holders need an extra high "tolerance" for many (most?) of us who don't hold a PhD?

I'm not sure where or how labour market regulation will help in this specific instance.

Re: Serfs of Academe

#27

Post by jseliger »

lordleft wrote: post #4

I've heard ghastly horror stories from PhD friends of mine at the Ivy I attended. I don't think the average person appreciate how unbalanced the power dynamic can be for doctoral students. An advisor can exert a fearsome pressure on their subordinates. You can also get lose funding, forcing you to pay an outrageous rate of tuition to the university (100k~ per annum) if you can't find another source of funding.

Word about these problems has been out for ~20 years if not longer: https://www.chronicle.com/article/So-You-Want-to-Go-to-Grad/... and yet people keep going. Grad school will change when people stop going.

Re: Serfs of Academe

#28

Post by xenonite »

seibelj wrote: post #5

When I was 19 I worked at Dominos Pizza, and they offered me a management track position. I would attend Dominos University, a management training course where they would teach me the art of pizza restaurant management and advanced pizza making skills. The starting salary for management back in 2007 was $38k per year with 10% bonus, and included health insurance, paid sick leave, etc. I say this because - why do thes…

Sadly, running a franchise business can become quite abusive too.

Re: Serfs of Academe

#29

Post by sykick »

otoburb wrote: post #26
sykick wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I understand that to be your point and I overall agree with it. However if all of those people tried to gain employment elsewhere there are side effects. A friend of mine with a Ph.D. in math and a Master's degree in electrical engineering works in industry in data science. He once told me that he would not want to hire people with a Ph.D. to do non research. He said they just have a hard time fitting into an en…

>> A friend of mine with a Ph.D. in math and a Master's degree in electrical engineering works in industry in data science. He once told me that he would not want to hire people with a Ph.D. to do non research. Does this mean that he considers himself an outlier (assuming he's also doing non-research activities), or that he feels that PhD holders need an extra high "tolerance" for many (most?) of us who don't hold a…

My reference to labor market regulation was aimed at adjunct labor. Such people should be paid better and I believe everyone should have affordable access to the healthcare system.

He considers himself and others with a Ph.D. in non research roles to need extra high tolerance. It's just his opinion and others may have better experiences. I was ABD in math when I quit (All But Dissertation). I spent one year in industry programming and it was hard for me. Obvious solutions were ignored and people tended to make issues seem bigger than they really were. I would be a bad employee and that's why I went to teach at a community college. I'll suffer the lower pay for greater autonomy and be in an environment were it's hard for really dumb decisions to ruin my day. I'm not an adjunct and in my system adjuncts are paid pro-rata and have pro-rata benefits too.

Re: Serfs of Academe

#30

Post by einpoklum »

lordleft wrote: post #4

I've heard ghastly horror stories from PhD friends of mine at the Ivy I attended. I don't think the average person appreciate how unbalanced the power dynamic can be for doctoral students. An advisor can exert a fearsome pressure on their subordinates. You can also get lose funding, forcing you to pay an outrageous rate of tuition to the university (100k~ per annum) if you can't find another source of funding.

... and this is almost entirely due to the lack of recognition of the employee status of Ph.D. candidates as junior researchers.

That is, the assumption that payment somehow naturally goes from the Ph.D. candidate to the university rather than vice-versa.

Luckily, there has been a very positive development in this front a few years back - 364 NLRB 90, Columbia University vs UAW:

https://columbiagradunion.org/wp-content/uploads/NLRB-Case-0...

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