Whom am I speaking with? • Hacker News Board

Re: Whom am I speaking with?

#21

Post by RiderOfGiraffes » Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 5:54 PM UTC

NickPollard wrote: post #14

cryptoz wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the Internet somewhere: On his first day at Harvard, a young freshman from Georgia was exploring the campus and, in his southern drawl, asked an older student: “Can you please tell me where the library is at?” The student looked down his nose and and said, in his New England accent, “At Harvard, we don’t end our sentences in a proposition.” The freshman replied. “Pardon me. Can you please tell me where the libra…

Quoting (possibly [1]) the great Winston Churchill, “This is the sort of bloody nonsense up with which I will not put.” [1] http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/churchill.html

Of course, it should be "... shall not put."

Re: Whom am I speaking with?

#22

Post by blahedo » Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 5:56 PM UTC

jeromec wrote: post #20

EliRivers wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you might say "Which car am I driving in?"

I think the majority of Americans would say "Which car am I driving in?" However, something makes me think the majority of Britons might actually say "In which car am I driving?" Am I the only one thinking this?

You probably aren't the only one thinking it, but it isn't true. Sentence-ending prepositions of this form are quite common throughout the English-speaking world.

Re: Whom am I speaking with?

#23

Post by holygoat » Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 5:57 PM UTC

jeromec wrote: post #20

EliRivers wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you might say "Which car am I driving in?"

I think the majority of Americans would say "Which car am I driving in?" However, something makes me think the majority of Britons might actually say "In which car am I driving?" Am I the only one thinking this?

The older and more educated the Brit, the more likely that is. I would sometimes say that, but the majority of Britons today would say "wot car are we drivin', eh lads?", or ask in Urdu.

Re: Whom am I speaking with?

#24

Post by blahedo » Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 6:03 PM UTC

tspiteri wrote: post #3

steverb wrote: post #2

I can't decide if the "Whom" in the title is a troll or not. At least the article gets it right.

How does the article get it right? If the answer can be "him", the question should be "whom", and if the answer can be "he", the question should be "who". Having said that, "Whom am I speaking with?" does sound pretty weird, "With whom am I speaking?" sounds much better.

That was the traditional rule, but in modern English, "whom" is a particularly marked usage anywhere except as the immediate object of a pronoun. "With whom am I speaking?" sounds formal but fine; "Who am I speaking with?" (or "...to?") is also fine. The form given in the title here is at best overly formal and stilted. What makes it weird is that it mixes the formal not-after-a-preposition "whom" with a sentence-ending "with", mixing register in a very confusing way.

It's like wearing a bow tie and tails with loud bermuda shorts: both are perfectly acceptable public attire and you might see either on a busy urban street of an evening, but it's jarring to see them together.

Re: Whom am I speaking with?

#25

Post by Vivtek » Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 6:06 PM UTC

tspiteri wrote: post #3

steverb wrote: post #2

I can't decide if the "Whom" in the title is a troll or not. At least the article gets it right.

How does the article get it right? If the answer can be "him", the question should be "whom", and if the answer can be "he", the question should be "who". Having said that, "Whom am I speaking with?" does sound pretty weird, "With whom am I speaking?" sounds much better.

The reason it "sounds weird" is that it's attempting to straddle two dialects. The use of "whom" is a signal for classical (Latinate) grammar, which would demand the Latinate prepositional word order, while the use of separable-prefix Germanic word order with "with" at the end is a signal to use "who" because dangling prepositions are associated with the less-Latinate trend towards discarding accusative "whom".

These modes normally don't get mixed, hence the weird sound of the title of this post.

Re: Whom am I speaking with?

#26

Post by Vivtek » Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 6:07 PM UTC

imperialWicket wrote: post #10

The winner is: With whom am I speaking? You wouldn't say, "The car am I driving in?". And you should avoid dangling prepositions. If your sentence (or clause) ends in a preposition, it is either extraneous, or your sentence requires rewording.

I love the smell of prescriptive grammar in the morning.

Re: Whom am I speaking with?

#27

Post by pluies » Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 6:08 PM UTC

Okay, grammatical quibbles aside, this blog post is scary.

Harvesting that much information about your customers is creepy and dangerous. I don't care that it helps your business or that it's technically feasible, it's just wrong.

Re: Whom am I speaking with?

#28

Post by imperialWicket » Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 6:13 PM UTC

lmkg wrote: post #19

imperialWicket wrote: post #10

The winner is: With whom am I speaking? You wouldn't say, "The car am I driving in?". And you should avoid dangling prepositions. If your sentence (or clause) ends in a preposition, it is either extraneous, or your sentence requires rewording.

Terminal prepositions are poor Latin , but they are perfectly acceptable English . The prejudice against terminal prepositions (and split infinitives, as well as such abominations as the s in island) came from a period in English linguistics where a bunch of grammarians thought that English wasn't dignified enough, and tried to pretend that it was a Romance language by shoehorning the language into awkward and ungain…

Valid points, noted. I did mention that you should avoid the closing preposition, and you are right to acknowledge that there are cases where it is acceptable. However, I think it is safe to assert that most of the time, it is simply imprecise speech.

If "With whom am I speaking?" sounds snooty, then I guess I am a snob.

Re: Whom am I speaking with?

#29

Post by blahedo » Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 6:13 PM UTC

imperialWicket wrote: post #10

The winner is: With whom am I speaking? You wouldn't say, "The car am I driving in?". And you should avoid dangling prepositions. If your sentence (or clause) ends in a preposition, it is either extraneous, or your sentence requires rewording.

Bull. There is no credible linguist that will argue that sentence-ending prepositions are either invalid or even uncommon in English, whether spoken or written. There are some who prescribe this rule, due to nothing more than their personal aesthetic, and vilify those who violate it; but it is not a rule that competent speakers or writers of the language follow, and indeed those that propagate the so-called "rule" are typically unable to follow it consistently.

Furthermore, "the car am I driving in" is a complete red herring in this discussion; its syntactic structure is not parallel to that of the title of the post.

(My apologies to everyone else for feeding the trolls, but I can't stand to see prescriptions like this passed around as if legitimate.)

Re: Whom am I speaking with?

#30

Post by jeromec » Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 6:14 PM UTC

holygoat wrote: post #23

jeromec wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the majority of Americans would say "Which car am I driving in?" However, something makes me think the majority of Britons might actually say "In which car am I driving?" Am I the only one thinking this?

The older and more educated the Brit, the more likely that is. I would sometimes say that, but the majority of Britons today would say "wot car are we drivin', eh lads?", or ask in Urdu.

"wot car are we drivin', eh lads?"

This makes me smile :)