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The Rotating Lepton Model

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Re: The Rotating Lepton Model

#21
They model the proton as three neutrinos rotating around a positron. These are spin 1/2, particles, so the composite particle that includes all of them must have a spin that is an integer number: 0, 1 or 2 in this case. But the proton is a 1/2 spin particle. This is a huge red flag.

For comparison, in the Standard Model, the proton is made of two up quarks an one down quark [1]. Each of the has spin 1/2, and the composite particle must have a non integer spin: 1/2 or 3/2 in this case. The proton is the one with spin 1/2. The version with spin 3/2 is the Delta+ particle, that is a 30% "heavier".

[There are other technical details, like if the three rotating neutrinos break the Pauli exclusion principle for neutrinos. I suspect that this is a problem, but I'm not sure. The inclusion of the Higgs boson is very strange. Anyway, the total spin is the easier to explain and check.]

[1] And a bunch of gluons of spin 0 and virtual particles that get compensated and don't affect the total spin. Let's use the naïve version with only three quarks.

Re: The Rotating Lepton Model

#22
post #13

How common is it for a physics theory to be able to compute so many quantities without fudge factors to make it all work out? I'm not a physicist, so I'm currently imagining this could be quite significant. Is that how physicists are reading it? Also, can any physicists comment on whether this is a top journal.

They have the mass of the neutrinos as a fudge factors. (I think they are using only 2 of them, but they list a third number ...) (And perhaps the mass of the electron.)

The table 1 they have a lot of baryons, each of them has two numbers nB and lB. These are small numbers like 1, 2 , 3 so they are not very fudgable. The problem is that the numbers are somewhat arbitrary. For example it's not clear how these numbers are related to the spin of the particle. Also it's not clear how they are related to the "strangeness". Both are clear an easy to measure properties. It looks like they calculate the mass for possible particles with small nB and lB and then they cherrypicked the real one with the closest mass. (There is a missing particle with nB=2 and lB=1. Why?)

Re: The Rotating Lepton Model

#23
post #20
post #7

Couldn't find it on arxiv, but it is referenced in another of their current articles here: https://arxiv.org/abs/2001.09760 Very novel :-/ edit: They have published a book. One can read the preview on Amazon to get a feel for it: https://www.amazon.com/Gravity-Special-Relativity-Strong-Boh... They aren't attracting any citations.

> Very novel :-/ Not sure what you mean, but just in case: the "2001" part in "2001.09760" is two-digit year followed by two-digit month, i.e. January 2020.

Heh. No, I was referring to the content. However, Vayenas has been publishing on this since at least 2008. This paper is the latest refinement of the theory. I haven't found any response to his work from the physics community - I would think that if it was easily refutable, that would have happened by now. But virtually all the citations appear to come from the small group of people working with Vayenas.

Professor Vayenas is a distinguished chemist, and his work looks rather like a blend of Old Quantum Theory and particle physics, so I suppose it's an uphill fight for him. However, Bohr did get a lot, e.g. the hydrogen spectrum, from a simple assumption, and Vayenas is trying to follow the same path.

The papers he's published are relatively accessible and full of startling calculations that result in close agreement with experimental results. They make interesting reading, and I haven't found anything so far that would cause me to reject them out of hand.

From the conclusion of the current paper: "Another emerging conclusion is that neutrinos, electrons, positrons and photons are present in all composite particles and are apparently the only undividable [sic] elementary particles."

https://cheme.stanford.edu/events/colloquium-constantinos-g-...

Re: The Rotating Lepton Model

#24
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Very novel :-/ Not sure what you mean, but just in case: the "2001" part in "2001.09760" is two-digit year followed by two-digit month, i.e. January 2020.

Heh. No, I was referring to the content. However, Vayenas has been publishing on this since at least 2008. This paper is the latest refinement of the theory. I haven't found any response to his work from the physics community - I would think that if it was easily refutable, that would have happened by now. But virtually all the citations appear to come from the small group of people working with Vayenas. Professor Va…

They are using 4 particles with spin 1/2 to model a particle with spin 1/2. That is impossible. More details in my other comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22223610

Re: The Rotating Lepton Model

#26

They model the proton as three neutrinos rotating around a positron. These are spin 1/2, particles, so the composite particle that includes all of them must have a spin that is an integer number: 0, 1 or 2 in this case. But the proton is a 1/2 spin particle. This is a huge red flag. For comparison, in the Standard Model, the proton is made of two up quarks an one down quark [1]. Each of the has spin 1/2, and the comp…

Couldn’t this just mean spin is more complicated? Are there other obvious issues like this that the small group of proponents are also ignoring?

Re: The Rotating Lepton Model

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heh. No, I was referring to the content. However, Vayenas has been publishing on this since at least 2008. This paper is the latest refinement of the theory. I haven't found any response to his work from the physics community - I would think that if it was easily refutable, that would have happened by now. But virtually all the citations appear to come from the small group of people working with Vayenas. Professor Va…

They are using 4 particles with spin 1/2 to model a particle with spin 1/2. That is impossible. More details in my other comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22223610

That’s an excellent objection. And yet, Vayenas is well aware of it and lists it as one of the requirements of a successful RLM.

Another question is how a neutrino triplet could condense in the first place, given the extreme velocities involved. But there was a lot of energy and density during the Big Bang.

Nonetheless, it’s interesting to see a different approach to combine gravity with particle physics, so I wish him luck. I’m going to read some more.

Re: The Rotating Lepton Model

#28

They model the proton as three neutrinos rotating around a positron. These are spin 1/2, particles, so the composite particle that includes all of them must have a spin that is an integer number: 0, 1 or 2 in this case. But the proton is a 1/2 spin particle. This is a huge red flag. For comparison, in the Standard Model, the proton is made of two up quarks an one down quark [1]. Each of the has spin 1/2, and the comp…

Couldn’t this just mean spin is more complicated? Are there other obvious issues like this that the small group of proponents are also ignoring?

[Standard disclaimer that Physic is an experimental science and everything can change in the future.]

Spin is more complicated! That the reason that force the sum of the four 1/2 spin particles to have spin 0, 1 or 2. It has a nice mathematical reason that is the SU(2) group representations.

All the experiments so far agree with this rules. The rule for four 1/2 particles can be tested with electron in small molecules or light atoms. The extension to other amount of electron and particles with spin 1/2 have also been tested. (The technical name is "fermions", IIRC this includes also particles with spin 3/2.)

The theory includes also rules for particles with spin 1 (like the photon), and the extended rules also agree with the experiments. I'd be more surprised that the rules for spin have to be changed than the other claims in this paper (that are also quite surprising).

Re: The Rotating Lepton Model

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are using 4 particles with spin 1/2 to model a particle with spin 1/2. That is impossible. More details in my other comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22223610

That’s an excellent objection. And yet, Vayenas is well aware of it and lists it as one of the requirements of a successful RLM. Another question is how a neutrino triplet could condense in the first place, given the extreme velocities involved. But there was a lot of energy and density during the Big Bang. Nonetheless, it’s interesting to see a different approach to combine gravity with particle physics, so I wish h…

I can't find it in the paper. In which page it is?

This is a huge. Spin rules have a very strong experimental and theoretical support. In this case they should write that in at the top of the article with all-caps, red color and blink.

It is almost as big as breaking the conservation of charge. (Almost.)

---

The condensation at the big bang makes no sense, because the particles are created and destroyed constantly. But this requires some handwaving and estimations.

The use of gravity here is very dubious, but this requires some handwaving and estimations. Try to read more about the "standard model" and about this, and compare the results. A good question is why there are two missing particles in the figure "B.1"?

Re: The Rotating Lepton Model

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn’t this just mean spin is more complicated? Are there other obvious issues like this that the small group of proponents are also ignoring?

[Standard disclaimer that Physic is an experimental science and everything can change in the future.] Spin is more complicated! That the reason that force the sum of the four 1/2 spin particles to have spin 0, 1 or 2. It has a nice mathematical reason that is the SU(2) group representations. All the experiments so far agree with this rules. The rule for four 1/2 particles can be tested with electron in small molecule…

From this link https://sci-hub.se/10.1007/978-1-4614-3936-3

Neutrinos are fermions with spin 1/2 [10] and thus one may anticipate spin of 1/2 or 3/2 for composite states formed by three neutrinos. Indeed most baryons have spin 1/2 and some, as shown in Table 4.4, have spin 3/2 [10]. Several baryons are charged, e.g. the proton or the Ξ+. The differences in mass, m, from their neutral brethren (i.e. the n or the Ξo) is small and of the order of αm, where α(= e2/εch¯ = 1/137.0359) is the fine structure constant. Thus the rotating neutrino model discussed here can describe with reasonable accuracy (e.g. Fig. 4.8 and Table 6.2) the masses of both neutral and charged baryons. However, since neutrinos are electrically neutral, the question arises about how charged baryons can be formed within the rotating neutrino model. One possibility is that in the distant past charged neutrinos existed. Their stronger interaction among themselves and with other particles led to their extinction via formation of hadrons, mesons, and neutral neutrinos. A more likely explanation is that neutral hadrons were first formed (e.g. neutrons) and then protons and electrons were formed via the β-decay [10], i.e. n → p+ + e− + ν¯e, which has a half-life of 885.7 s.

I guess he assumes here that with three neutrinos you can have the right spin and make neutrons, but for the charge aspect, in order to keep the half integer spin, you either need charged neutrinos or charged particles from neutron decay.. while tossing all strong and weak force away... if that's possible !! I believe the real problem with this theory is the relativistic newton gravitation law which he derived with handwaving arguments, while all the theorists have expressed explicitly that these two cannot be combined..he tossed the gamma factors in there, picked the neutrino mass of his choise and everything coincided with some accuracy, which isnt even helpful or hints at anything if it doesnt predict anything falsifiable, or better accuracy than the current model

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