One of biggest frauds in U.S. farm history • Hacker News Board

Re: One of biggest frauds in U.S. farm history

#21

Post by hedora » Sat, Jan 25, 2020, 9:52 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #4

From the article: “They can test for GMO (genetically modified organisms) … but corn that’s not GMO, you can’t tell whether it’s been sprayed or not sprayed.” "Technically, you can, but you’re not likely to get a positive result unless the inspector hits it just right and collects a plant sample before the residues wash away." Yes. See this Forbes article. By the time it reaches retail, you can't tell.[1] Non-organic…

You certainly can test for some non-organic foods at retail.

For example, non-organic oats are often sprayed with roundup at harvest time, so cereals made from them routinely have unsafe levels of carcinogens in them:

https://www.ewg.org/childrenshealth/monsanto-weedkiller-stil...

Organic oats have less than 1/10th as much roundup in them on average:

https://gimmethegoodstuff.org/pesticides-in-organic-oatmeal-...

Also, the more farms go organic, the less contamination there will be in the organic crops.

Re: One of biggest frauds in U.S. farm history

#22

Post by ahopskin » Sat, Jan 25, 2020, 9:55 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #5

Animats wrote: post #4

From the article: “They can test for GMO (genetically modified organisms) … but corn that’s not GMO, you can’t tell whether it’s been sprayed or not sprayed.” "Technically, you can, but you’re not likely to get a positive result unless the inspector hits it just right and collects a plant sample before the residues wash away." Yes. See this Forbes article. By the time it reaches retail, you can't tell.[1] Non-organic…

> Non-organic food is probably healthier. Less insect residue. Sorry, is "insect residue" a term of art? Any why would a bug's "residue" be unhealthy, exactly? (In particular in a way that would survive routine washing in a way that a pesticide would not?) I'd ask for a citation, but... yeah. You just made that up, right? None of that should be taken as a particular defense of the US organic food regulation regime, w…

Why the fuck is this downvoted? This site has rapidly decayed from mere crap into absolute trash it seems.

Re: One of biggest frauds in U.S. farm history

#23

Post by lovich » Sat, Jan 25, 2020, 9:57 PM UTC

erikig wrote: post #9

"There’s no proof that the meat [from animals fed from fraudulently marked "organic" produce] is any better for you, but some people believe it is and others have philosophical or environmental reasons for preferring it." Makes me wonder - who is the victim of this fraud?

Does it matter if organic is healthier or not? If you advertise a good for sale based on a specific characteristic, and then sell goods that don't have that characteristic, you have committed fraud. Whether or not that specific characteristic has an affect in the real world does not change the fact that you aren't selling what you advertised

Re: One of biggest frauds in U.S. farm history

#24

Post by tsomctl » Sat, Jan 25, 2020, 10:01 PM UTC

rblatz wrote: post #3

cprayingmantis wrote: post #2

I wouldn’t be surprised if during the next few years you saw a number of stories like this come out. From my talks with folks there isn’t as much oversight in the organic sector as we’re led to believe. That’s all hearsay so take it with a grain of salt.

Being from Ohio I knew quite a few farmers, or people that grew up on farms. They all laugh at organic and say it’s bullshit. There is typically no way to tell after the fact if something is or isn’t organic. Same with rBGH free dairy products. Farmers have known for years that the label is only as good as the word of farmer, and with economic pressures to cheat, it’s not surprising to find cheaters.

Except for those with leaky digestive systems, and non-organic produce is a guaranteed way to get a headache.

Re: One of biggest frauds in U.S. farm history

#25

Post by sandworm101 » Sat, Jan 25, 2020, 10:10 PM UTC

rblatz wrote: post #3

cprayingmantis wrote: post #2

I wouldn’t be surprised if during the next few years you saw a number of stories like this come out. From my talks with folks there isn’t as much oversight in the organic sector as we’re led to believe. That’s all hearsay so take it with a grain of salt.

Being from Ohio I knew quite a few farmers, or people that grew up on farms. They all laugh at organic and say it’s bullshit. There is typically no way to tell after the fact if something is or isn’t organic. Same with rBGH free dairy products. Farmers have known for years that the label is only as good as the word of farmer, and with economic pressures to cheat, it’s not surprising to find cheaters.

If you are passing off one product as another, deliberately defrauding your buyers, you are running serious risks. It wont be the feds taking the farm. It will be Whole Foods' lawyers coming to recover the cost of pulling your product off shelves. And insurance doesn't cover fraud.

Re: One of biggest frauds in U.S. farm history

#26

Post by jelliclesfarm » Sat, Jan 25, 2020, 10:23 PM UTC

Soil, environment and flora/fauna, insects and farm workers benefit from organic methods. It’s the failure of certification bodies in that they haven’t communicated that enough and only focused on the $ spending end consumer.

Re: One of biggest frauds in U.S. farm history

#27

Post by bad_user » Sat, Jan 25, 2020, 10:29 PM UTC

gniv wrote: post #6

rblatz wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being from Ohio I knew quite a few farmers, or people that grew up on farms. They all laugh at organic and say it’s bullshit. There is typically no way to tell after the fact if something is or isn’t organic. Same with rBGH free dairy products. Farmers have known for years that the label is only as good as the word of farmer, and with economic pressures to cheat, it’s not surprising to find cheaters.

> There is typically no way to tell after the fact Consumer Reports (and others) did studies that showed non-organic food have lots more pesticide residue than organic food. That of course doesn't mean they are better for you or that they are tastier.

No, non-organic has more residue of expected pesticides.

The often unspoken truth however is that many chemicals aren't tested for. For example copper sulfate, used as organic fungicide.

In other words conventional agriculture uses far more substances that the USDA tests for, a vast majority of them, whereas organic agriculture uses substances that aren't covered by USDA tests. Which should be obvious.

This doesn't mean that:

1. Organic agriculture uses less pesticides (bullshit, unless you're talking about GMOs, another hot subject)

2. Organic produce is in any way healthier

Both of these statements lack credible evidence. And we might actually find instances in which the substances used in organic agriculture are more unhealthy than their conventional equivalents.

Re: One of biggest frauds in U.S. farm history

#28

Post by downrightmike » Sat, Jan 25, 2020, 10:30 PM UTC

He scammed out a couple dozen million dollars each year and is fined 128 million, which ruined him and he'd never be able to pay it back. This is the kind of punishment That needs to happen to a lot of industries, really any of the crimes people commit should cost them more than they gained. But he must have been too small potatoes, so he got an appropriate sentence.

Re: One of biggest frauds in U.S. farm history

#29

Post by diogenescynic » Sat, Jan 25, 2020, 10:35 PM UTC

I suspect similar organic frauds are going on all over. I know someone who was fired for not going along with faking the statistics that a food service vendor was using for marketing. There need to be more regulations to verify something labeled as organic actually is.

Re: One of biggest frauds in U.S. farm history

#30

Post by NeedMoreTea » Sat, Jan 25, 2020, 10:42 PM UTC

rblatz wrote: post #3

cprayingmantis wrote: post #2

I wouldn’t be surprised if during the next few years you saw a number of stories like this come out. From my talks with folks there isn’t as much oversight in the organic sector as we’re led to believe. That’s all hearsay so take it with a grain of salt.

Being from Ohio I knew quite a few farmers, or people that grew up on farms. They all laugh at organic and say it’s bullshit. There is typically no way to tell after the fact if something is or isn’t organic. Same with rBGH free dairy products. Farmers have known for years that the label is only as good as the word of farmer, and with economic pressures to cheat, it’s not surprising to find cheaters.

Trading Standards in the UK are able to detect organic products, and will periodically take samples from farms and manufacturers for lab testing. There have been samples taken from stores, and prosecutions -- not enough, but the ability is there.

That's over and above the Soil Association regulations and inspections. SA is the organic standards body in the UK.

So it sounds like the US problem is lack of oversight. Of course thanks to the deliberate under funding of the state, particularly of local councils, by recent Tory governments the UK is rapidly catching up to that lack of oversight -- Trading Standards are severely underfunded currently as councils are forced to fund more urgent needs first.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/organic-produce-tests-and-inspec...