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F-35 logistics system to be reinvented and renamed, official says

reuters.com

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Re: F-35 logistics system to be reinvented and renamed, official says

#21

Post by ptero »

divbyzer0 wrote: post #7
yborg wrote: post #6

The functioning or non-functioning of the logistics system for the F-35 is largely irrelevant, as just demonstrated Lockheed is paid whether it works or not; and non-functioning is much safer for the program, as non-flying F-35s are safe from combat and accidents. In fact, low availability just provides an excuse for the Air Force to demand additional budget for aircraft. This isn't so much a combat system as a corpo…

(with my tin-foil hat securely fastened) I've always had a suspicion that the generous piles of cash thrown at the F-35 program was really going to two programs: 1) A well-publicised cover (F-35) 2) A secret Skunk Works project like F-117, SR-71 But a corporate welfare program as you suggest is more likely.

Real work is (comparably) cheap. With F35 budget well over a trillion dollars this is 2-3 orders of magnitude larger than needed to fund maximum number of projects Skunk works can sustain, at max manpower. It is bureaucratic waste with minimum productive output. My 2c.

Re: F-35 logistics system to be reinvented and renamed, official says

#22

Post by p_l »

chinathrow wrote: post #4
pixelface wrote: post #3

"ODIN will be based in the cloud and designed to deliver data in near real time on aircraft and system performance under heightened cyber security provisions, Lord said. " heart warming to see us draw ever closer to the cyberpunk dystopia of my childhood dreams.

Wait till you learn that some F-16s run with Kubernetes on board. https://thenewstack.io/how-the-u-s-air-force-deployed-kubern... "“One point for the team was to demonstrate that it could be done,” Chaillan said. He challenged the Air Force and its partners to get Kubernetes up and running on a jet in 45 days, and while that was as difficult as it sounds, the team met the goal and F-16s are now running three concurre…

At least it's on board.

ODIN being in the cloud is nothing new - a big pain point with ALIS is the fact that it's cloud based.

Re: F-35 logistics system to be reinvented and renamed, official says

#23

Post by p_l »

nabla9 wrote: post #8

This was not a fluke. The failure rate of large scale IT projects is the huge. For large, complex projects the statistics is 2% success 42% challenged 56% failed https://www.standishgroup.com/sample_research_files/CHAOSRep... The new system has probably similar 50% change for success. I think giving the new project to the same contractor may improve the changes. Hhey have hopefully learned something.

In this case the chances of success are even lower, given the track record of the company doing it.

Which involves as stellar things as delivering a not-working (but "valid under contract" so we couldn't sue them) system for logistics management (everything from ensuring parts are on the shelves to assigning jobs to technicians and pilots for a mission) that we later found was rebranded broken car logistics support software, something that was found 3 years post original delivery date by new employee of a team working on fixing it - which meant we had to rework a crucial module.

Said software had gems like JS copied from geocities in 1998 handling drop down menus (which were broken unless very specific browser versions were used) - in 2012. (original delivery date was 2009~2010).

The "redo" contract is going to the same guys who just did the failure, and I've seen no mention of removal of one of the bigger pain points, which was use of cloud.

Re: F-35 logistics system to be reinvented and renamed, official says

#24

Post by mikorym »

adrianN wrote: post #18
nabla9 wrote: post #8

This was not a fluke. The failure rate of large scale IT projects is the huge. For large, complex projects the statistics is 2% success 42% challenged 56% failed https://www.standishgroup.com/sample_research_files/CHAOSRep... The new system has probably similar 50% change for success. I think giving the new project to the same contractor may improve the changes. Hhey have hopefully learned something.

Hack: Start development of n systems in parallel, to get 1-(0.98)^n success probability.

If only the variables were independent, right...

Re: F-35 logistics system to be reinvented and renamed, official says

#25

Post by lowdose »

jmnicolas wrote: post #17
jon-wood wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m having enough trouble seeing why you’d want one Kube cluster on an F-16, never mind three.

Probably because there are tons of censors on modern jets and you need something to manage them. However I wouldn't use a civilian made system for this, you're going to spend the rest of the program lifetime correcting security holes.

Because civilian made is not invented here?

Re: F-35 logistics system to be reinvented and renamed, official says

#26

Post by ipnon »

adrianN wrote: post #18
nabla9 wrote: post #8

This was not a fluke. The failure rate of large scale IT projects is the huge. For large, complex projects the statistics is 2% success 42% challenged 56% failed https://www.standishgroup.com/sample_research_files/CHAOSRep... The new system has probably similar 50% change for success. I think giving the new project to the same contractor may improve the changes. Hhey have hopefully learned something.

Hack: Start development of n systems in parallel, to get 1-(0.98)^n success probability.

Isn't this sort of the FAAAM strategy regarding senior talent retention? Pay 10x engineers to work on pet projects rather than have them jump ship.

Re: F-35 logistics system to be reinvented and renamed, official says

#27

Post by wolfgke »

ptero wrote: post #21
divbyzer0 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(with my tin-foil hat securely fastened) I've always had a suspicion that the generous piles of cash thrown at the F-35 program was really going to two programs: 1) A well-publicised cover (F-35) 2) A secret Skunk Works project like F-117, SR-71 But a corporate welfare program as you suggest is more likely.

Real work is (comparably) cheap. With F35 budget well over a trillion dollars this is 2-3 orders of magnitude larger than needed to fund maximum number of projects Skunk works can sustain, at max manpower. It is bureaucratic waste with minimum productive output. My 2c.

> Skunk works can sustain, at max manpower. It is bureaucratic waste with minimum productive output. My 2c.

Isn't the idea of skunkwork projects exactly to avoid bureaucratic waste for the sake of radical innovation?! Let me give three quotes from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Skunkworks_projec...:

"A skunkworks project is a project developed by a relatively small and loosely structured group of people who research and develop a project primarily for the sake of radical innovation."

"Everett Rogers defined skunkworks as an "enriched environment that is intended to help a small group of individuals design a new idea by escaping routine organizational procedures.""

"[T]he term [skunkworks] was generalized to apply to similar high-priority R&D projects at other large organizations which feature a small elite team removed from the normal working environment and given freedom from management constraints.".

In this sense, the projects you are talking about surely cannot be skunkwork projects, but are just ordinary cooperate projects with a huge conservative cooperate-bureaucratic structure.

Re: F-35 logistics system to be reinvented and renamed, official says

#28

Post by mrtksn »

yborg wrote: post #6

The functioning or non-functioning of the logistics system for the F-35 is largely irrelevant, as just demonstrated Lockheed is paid whether it works or not; and non-functioning is much safer for the program, as non-flying F-35s are safe from combat and accidents. In fact, low availability just provides an excuse for the Air Force to demand additional budget for aircraft. This isn't so much a combat system as a corpo…

If that's the case, sounds like a very peaceful solution for the world. The alternative is pushing for actual armed conflicts where actually working machines are killing actual people for corporate welfare.

Re: F-35 logistics system to be reinvented and renamed, official says

#29

Post by mikorym »

divbyzer0 wrote: post #7
yborg wrote: post #6

The functioning or non-functioning of the logistics system for the F-35 is largely irrelevant, as just demonstrated Lockheed is paid whether it works or not; and non-functioning is much safer for the program, as non-flying F-35s are safe from combat and accidents. In fact, low availability just provides an excuse for the Air Force to demand additional budget for aircraft. This isn't so much a combat system as a corpo…

(with my tin-foil hat securely fastened) I've always had a suspicion that the generous piles of cash thrown at the F-35 program was really going to two programs: 1) A well-publicised cover (F-35) 2) A secret Skunk Works project like F-117, SR-71 But a corporate welfare program as you suggest is more likely.

This is always an exciting question... You know, it's nice to daydream about all kinds of secret and mysterious projects. But I think another question is more about necessity, and I think necessity is what fuels a lot of politics around these kind of military projects. People pull towards both extremes and end up somewhere in the middle, which is maybe the mean of perceived necessity.

If the US is clever (NSA: this is your queue) it would find a way to use the current difficult political climate to focus on what they are supposed to do (I guess preventing war maybe) and in a relevant way for the times. The Russians basically did this with internet trolls. They took something simple (and amusing at times) and weaponised it.

I guess one would hope enough people that are both clever and uhm, ethical, work for the three-letter organisations.

Re: F-35 logistics system to be reinvented and renamed, official says

#30

Post by [deleted] »

wolfgke wrote: post #27
ptero wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real work is (comparably) cheap. With F35 budget well over a trillion dollars this is 2-3 orders of magnitude larger than needed to fund maximum number of projects Skunk works can sustain, at max manpower. It is bureaucratic waste with minimum productive output. My 2c.

> Skunk works can sustain, at max manpower. It is bureaucratic waste with minimum productive output. My 2c. Isn't the idea of skunkwork projects exactly to avoid bureaucratic waste for the sake of radical innovation?! Let me give three quotes from https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Skunkworks_projec... : "A skunkworks project is a project developed by a relatively small and loosely structured group of people…

[deleted]
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