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Pervasive myths about older software developers

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Re: Pervasive myths about older software developers

#21

Post by arethuza »

nika wrote: post #14

One thing that I think hasn't been recognized by popular engineering culture is that the guys who started programming in the 1970s had a lot less to work with, and had a harder time. They often worked in assembly, and a soldering iron was a legitimate debugging tool. Those who started programming in the 1980s had compilers but languages were something you went out and bought, and they were sold like enterprise softwa…

"a soldering iron was a legitimate debugging tool"

I knew a guy who, in the early '90s, had done some programming with a hand drill.

Re: Pervasive myths about older software developers

#22

Post by silverbax88 »

The one point of contention I have with the article is about older programmers 'thinking more slowly'. This is again reiterated in the comments below the article. This is not true, we actually learn faster as we get older as long as we stay mentally active. In other words, we 'learn how to learn'. There are things that I can grasp now so easily that eluded me when I was 20. If you can't think faster and learn easier when you are 40 than when you were 20, you aren't exercising your mind enough.

There's a reason why the best lawyers are NOT those right out of law school as a general rule.

Re: Pervasive myths about older software developers

#23

Post by pasbesoin »

nika wrote: post #14

One thing that I think hasn't been recognized by popular engineering culture is that the guys who started programming in the 1970s had a lot less to work with, and had a harder time. They often worked in assembly, and a soldering iron was a legitimate debugging tool. Those who started programming in the 1980s had compilers but languages were something you went out and bought, and they were sold like enterprise softwa…

I can't say I have more than a subjective view, but people such as you describe, from my father's generation (him included, and coloring my impression), are/were often "wicked" smart and also curious.

I'm reminded of stories about how many were recruited from linguistics programs and other areas. These are often people with a diversity of interests. And yet, they tend to excel in all or most of those interests. (Linguistics, physical sciences, mathematics, music, photography, social sciences, etc., etc.)

My impression is that it was more difficult, and challenging, and that the people you found there had self selected down to a very, very capable -- and often interesting -- subset.

I guess you also had the more "corporate" roles. But even many of those had to "get their hands dirty" when it came to picking the proverbial or literal moth out of the innards so that e.g. payroll wouldn't be delayed. (There was no "plug and play".)

Re: Pervasive myths about older software developers

#24

Post by blacksmythe »

codypo wrote: post #18

If you accept the article's theses that older developers are a big asset AND that they're at a disadvantage in the marketplace due to discrimination, there's an opportunity here. Rather than try to woo and retain 30 hotshot developers in their 20s, it'd be easier to hire 18 or 20 developers in their 40s. The turnover would certainly be lower, the output should be equal (or greater?), and there'd be less need for exte…

  >> it'd be easier to hire 18 or 20 developers in their 40s.
Great developers in their 40s have a wide range of contacts from their years of working, and rarely if ever look for jobs on job boards. Finding great developers in their 40s, and prying them out of their present jobs, is a non-trivial task. (One I am actually in the process of this week).

Re: Pervasive myths about older software developers

#25

Post by pasbesoin »

arethuza wrote: post #21
nika wrote: post #14

One thing that I think hasn't been recognized by popular engineering culture is that the guys who started programming in the 1970s had a lot less to work with, and had a harder time. They often worked in assembly, and a soldering iron was a legitimate debugging tool. Those who started programming in the 1980s had compilers but languages were something you went out and bought, and they were sold like enterprise softwa…

"a soldering iron was a legitimate debugging tool" I knew a guy who, in the early '90s, had done some programming with a hand drill.

One of my father's favorite stories involves debugging an intermittent error, wading through all of the spec's until finally isolating it to a single subsystem. He pointed to and pressed on the IC package, and apparently reseated it. The problem never recurred.

Also, the often noted "magic switch":

http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/magic-story.html

Re: Pervasive myths about older software developers

#26

Post by pchristensen »

codypo wrote: post #18

If you accept the article's theses that older developers are a big asset AND that they're at a disadvantage in the marketplace due to discrimination, there's an opportunity here. Rather than try to woo and retain 30 hotshot developers in their 20s, it'd be easier to hire 18 or 20 developers in their 40s. The turnover would certainly be lower, the output should be equal (or greater?), and there'd be less need for exte…

I'd imagine that even if there's a opportunity there, it's still hard to separate great older devs from mediocre older devs, and older people have higher salary expectations.

Re: Pervasive myths about older software developers

#28

Post by KedarMhaswade »

What we need (to really prove the point of article) is a number of successful software startups where average age is say 38. How many of us (I am turning 40 soon) dare cross the Paul Graham Limit (23-38) on higher side? Looking at the cream of younger software craftsmen (e.g. @github) I feel many older programmers (forget outliers, please) have a mountain to climb.

Re: Pervasive myths about older software developers

#29

Post by marquis »

Isamu wrote: post #5

Old developer here. Nice to affirm that these are "myths" in the sense that they are often not true, but given a random old guy these may be quite accurate. These are observations that people have made of real individuals that do not generalize to the whole group. > Myth: Older software developers are more jaded and cynical and therefore, less desirable in the workplace than younger ones. Younger developers are more…

I often look back to a few years ago and assume that if I was approached with the same idea now there is no way I'd tackle it. I'm not near 50 but even having 5 years of experience in a difficult technical field has made me jaded with wanting to take on more challenges that I don't see a genuine value for. I'm hoping to take a couple of years off soon and get back to that naive self and start something new in a different field.

Re: Pervasive myths about older software developers

#30

Post by mgkimsal »

ahi wrote: post #17

From anecdotal evidence I will put forward another theory. Because CS and programming are relatively new and rapidly growing fields a large number of programmers in the early years were random office workers who could type, press ganged into development duties. Education started to catch up in the 80s and 90s so young kids with a real grounding in fundamentals were coming into organizations staffed with older develop…

One might also say there was far less information available at their fingertips to help them learn, even if they wanted to. They may have been relegated to one or two books, which likely were outdated or wrong.
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