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Australia first to test new lithium-sulphur batteries

newscientist.com

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Re: Australia first to test new lithium-sulphur batteries

#21

Post by foxyv »

scythe wrote: post #18

I've read dozens of papers on Li-S over the years because of how much incredible potential the technology seems to have. The "dirty little secret" seems to be not the charge cycles (which are less than, but similar to, other batteries), but the large amount of electrolyte required, which reduces the effective energy density of the battery. There are all sorts of papers reporting high-capacity and durable cathodes but…

For utilities I don't imagine that electrolyte is a big issue as there is plenty of space and you aren't lugging them around like you are in an EV. Maybe their plan is to use it mostly for grid power?

Re: Australia first to test new lithium-sulphur batteries

#23

Post by clutch89 »

jpm_sd wrote: post #14

Sion Power has been working on this technology "since 1989". https://sionpower.com/about/ It still only lasts a couple of hundred charge cycles before wearing out: https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/1/eaay2757 "The cells are stable for more than 200 cycles..."

You misread that, it doesn't wear out after 200 cycles, it maintains 99% efficiency after 200 cycles.

Re: Australia first to test new lithium-sulphur batteries

#24

Post by hanniabu »

close04 wrote: post #11
davidhyde wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd recommend using using "I don't care about cookies" and "Cookiebro" to restore your sanity. Basically you want to automatically accept all cookies, say yes to all cookie banners, then remove all cookies when you close the browser except the ones you explicitly want to keep (for staying logged into certain sites). Those two firefox extensions facilitate that.

I'm using just uBlock Origin and since I haven't seen any cookie dialog I assume it did the job just fine. YMMV.

Unless you're on mobile and then you're helpless and it's even worse because the dialog takes up 30% of the screen, and the top sticky ads take up the top 15%, and then you have autoplay video ads at the top of the page filling up the rest of the viewable area, then you go to try and scroll the page and then a new well engineered ad has a delayed load to pop up right where you're about to click....

Re: Australia first to test new lithium-sulphur batteries

#25

Post by ajuc »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #10

Lithium-Sulphur has high energy per kilogram which makes it good for transportation. Also high energy per dollar to manufacture which makes it good for grid storage (where weight and size don't matter too much, but cost does). At the nominal rate of 750 amp hours per kilogram for lithium-Sulphur is well above normal lithium-ion batteries. But compared to gasoline, it raises the bar from 1% vs gas, to 2%. Do I have th…

Electric cars are about 3 times as energy-efficient as ICE cars. So it's not 1% to 2% but 3% to 6%. And with other savings (much lighter engine, no need for transmission) it's even better.

The problem is with degradation - it seems the new batteries only last 200 cycles.

Re: Australia first to test new lithium-sulphur batteries

#26

Post by JoeAltmaier »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #15
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #10

Lithium-Sulphur has high energy per kilogram which makes it good for transportation. Also high energy per dollar to manufacture which makes it good for grid storage (where weight and size don't matter too much, but cost does). At the nominal rate of 750 amp hours per kilogram for lithium-Sulphur is well above normal lithium-ion batteries. But compared to gasoline, it raises the bar from 1% vs gas, to 2%. Do I have th…

What makes electric cars viable isn't that batteries have anywhere near the energy density of gasoline, it's that if you use them, you get to replace half a ton of engine, transmission, alternator, fuel pump, emissions and exhaust with a This naturally makes battery improvements a huge win. If you double power density you can cut the weight of the battery by more than half for the same range, since not only do you ge…

Nowhere near. The Tesla battery pack is 1000 lbs. There are entire cars that don't weigh that. Race car engine is 200lbs.

And battery packs have cooling systems too. So no savings there.

Specific energy (watts-hours per kilogram) is the entire ballgame with batteries and transportation.

Re: Australia first to test new lithium-sulphur batteries

#27

Post by Retric »

ajuc wrote: post #17
Retric wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

200 charge cycles at 4x the storage = 800 lithium ion charge cycles. That’s easily competitive. Put another way if your getting 300 miles of range a current EV that’s 300 x4 x200 = 240,000 miles.

Only if you change your habits to maximize the lifetime of the batteries. For example avoid charging the car every night and instead charge it for a few nights after it's completely empty.

Most batteries handle partial charging better than full charging.

But, assuming it’s an issue a hybrid design with say 150 miles of daily driving lithium ion and 150 x4 = 600 miles of extended range is another option.

Re: Australia first to test new lithium-sulphur batteries

#28

Post by ajuc »

Retric wrote: post #27
ajuc wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if you change your habits to maximize the lifetime of the batteries. For example avoid charging the car every night and instead charge it for a few nights after it's completely empty.

Most batteries handle partial charging better than full charging. But, assuming it’s an issue a hybrid design with say 150 miles of daily driving lithium ion and 150 x4 = 600 miles of extended range is another option.

That's actually a good idea. I was thinking supercapacitors for fast acceleration/recuperation and batteries only rated for sustained driving at cruising speed. Should last much longer.

Re: Australia first to test new lithium-sulphur batteries

#29

Post by JoeAltmaier »

ajuc wrote: post #25
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #10

Lithium-Sulphur has high energy per kilogram which makes it good for transportation. Also high energy per dollar to manufacture which makes it good for grid storage (where weight and size don't matter too much, but cost does). At the nominal rate of 750 amp hours per kilogram for lithium-Sulphur is well above normal lithium-ion batteries. But compared to gasoline, it raises the bar from 1% vs gas, to 2%. Do I have th…

Electric cars are about 3 times as energy-efficient as ICE cars. So it's not 1% to 2% but 3% to 6%. And with other savings (much lighter engine, no need for transmission) it's even better. The problem is with degradation - it seems the new batteries only last 200 cycles.

Its all problems, so far. Weight, heat, size, charge cycles, range. Its only recently that its been even possible to make a practical electric car.

Don't fool yourself - there's a transmission element in an electric car too. The power has to get to the wheels, regardless of the power plant.

Re: Australia first to test new lithium-sulphur batteries

#30

Post by elil17 »

ajuc wrote: post #25
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #10

Lithium-Sulphur has high energy per kilogram which makes it good for transportation. Also high energy per dollar to manufacture which makes it good for grid storage (where weight and size don't matter too much, but cost does). At the nominal rate of 750 amp hours per kilogram for lithium-Sulphur is well above normal lithium-ion batteries. But compared to gasoline, it raises the bar from 1% vs gas, to 2%. Do I have th…

Electric cars are about 3 times as energy-efficient as ICE cars. So it's not 1% to 2% but 3% to 6%. And with other savings (much lighter engine, no need for transmission) it's even better. The problem is with degradation - it seems the new batteries only last 200 cycles.

That’s really not that much worse than a lithium ion battery (300-500 charge cycles). Also, higher capacity means less frequent charging.
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