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Getting a 787 back in the air after a diversion

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21–30 of 139 posts

Re: Getting a 787 back in the air after a diversion

#21
post #17

Back when I worked at Boeing they had the AOG (Airplane On Ground) crew to do this sort of thing. Their job was to be on call 24/7 and do whatever it took to get that airplane back in the air, and they pretty much had a blank check to do it. Naturally, they were the best mechanics Boeing had. An airplane makes money only when it is flying. When it is sitting on the ground, it loses money at a prodigious rate. A large…

"Prodigious Rate" -- To put this in context, the latest numbers I saw is about $125 per min of unscheduled delay. It also doesn't take that many delays to wipe profitability to zero.

A corollary is that airline operations revolve around maximizing the amount of time their airplanes are flying and loaded to the gills with payload.

The word "payload" is not a misnomer :-)

Re: Getting a 787 back in the air after a diversion

#22

It just seems like a very bad idea that twin-engine planes can fly so far from an air strip. If the #1 engine had failed as well it would have been game over. There's no possibility of gliding a 787 for 2+ hours and hundreds of miles. If the FAA wanted to prioritize safety, it would still require the use of four-engined planes, as it used to for most long ocean routes. The desire to fly twin-engine planes over the oc…

[deleted]

Re: Getting a 787 back in the air after a diversion

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Germans in Russia in WW2 would use fires to warm their tanks and airplanes to get them to start.

They still do this in some places in Russia.

I might add that lighting a fire under a gas engine that likely has leaks and drips is a pretty ballsy thing to do.

Re: Getting a 787 back in the air after a diversion

#24

It just seems like a very bad idea that twin-engine planes can fly so far from an air strip. If the #1 engine had failed as well it would have been game over. There's no possibility of gliding a 787 for 2+ hours and hundreds of miles. If the FAA wanted to prioritize safety, it would still require the use of four-engined planes, as it used to for most long ocean routes. The desire to fly twin-engine planes over the oc…

> If the FAA wanted to prioritize safety, it would still require the use of four-engined planes, as it used to for most long ocean routes. The desire to fly twin-engine planes over the ocean is entirely driven by a desire to maximize airline profits.

That intuitively makes sense, but it's incorrect. The FAA certified twin engines over water because it's safer. Half the number of engines mean half the failures, and half the risk of cascaded failures from the failing engines.

Statistics bear this out. Twin engines are safer.

Re: Getting a 787 back in the air after a diversion

#25

Back when I worked at Boeing they had the AOG (Airplane On Ground) crew to do this sort of thing. Their job was to be on call 24/7 and do whatever it took to get that airplane back in the air, and they pretty much had a blank check to do it. Naturally, they were the best mechanics Boeing had. An airplane makes money only when it is flying. When it is sitting on the ground, it loses money at a prodigious rate. A large…

> I understand that Microsoft has a similar crew they can dispatch to any customer to get their business software working again.

Given how much Microsoft software tends to “blue screen of death” it’s no wonder they have to keep a crew on standby.

Re: Getting a 787 back in the air after a diversion

#26

It just seems like a very bad idea that twin-engine planes can fly so far from an air strip. If the #1 engine had failed as well it would have been game over. There's no possibility of gliding a 787 for 2+ hours and hundreds of miles. If the FAA wanted to prioritize safety, it would still require the use of four-engined planes, as it used to for most long ocean routes. The desire to fly twin-engine planes over the oc…

Contrary to your assertion the two engined craft are just as safe (or safer!) as the four engined craft because of changes in procedures. Fuel management, weather forecasting, general engine reliability, lubricant reserves are all different and much more stringent for a twin engined jet over water on a straightline route. The effect is the aircraft is less long in the air anyway which has a big effect on the risk calculation.

The main motivation is money, that's true, but the secondary motivation, the environment is also important and the math really does work out to a negligible safety difference (advantage twins) that to date has not led to the observation of numbers that would indicate a deviation from the predicted reliability figures.

Finally, the chances of something going wrong on a twin engined aircraft vs a quad are higher for the quad because it is a much more complex system. So yes, if an engine fails a four engined plane would be able to deal with it better but the chances of something going wrong are twice as high.

In the 60's, when the 747 was designed the reliability of jet engines was such that four engines was more or less a must but we are now a good 50 years away from those days and our ability to deal with complex reliability issues has gone up substantially (recent Boeing issues notwithstanding). The A380 has four engines because it is simply too heavy to take off with only two engines.

Engine shutdown is so rare now that pilots can go a whole career without encountering it even once and typically it is the monitoring system that has a fault rather than the engine itself but you would shut down the engine anyway in those situations as a precaution.

Re: Getting a 787 back in the air after a diversion

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They still do this in some places in Russia.

I might add that lighting a fire under a gas engine that likely has leaks and drips is a pretty ballsy thing to do.

Usually done for big rigs, diesels not gas engines.

Re: Getting a 787 back in the air after a diversion

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They still do this in some places in Russia.

I might add that lighting a fire under a gas engine that likely has leaks and drips is a pretty ballsy thing to do.

It’s rare to have an engine that just drips fuel. Lubrication oil for sure, but straight up petrol leaks for a non-running engine require a lot of things to be wrong.

Re: Getting a 787 back in the air after a diversion

#29
post #7
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might get some of the backstory halfway off, but my grandfather was in Alaska during WWII for the construction of the Alaska Highway. They tried to never turn off truck and equipment engines because if you did, you had to build a fire under them to get them warm enough to start again.

Cars in northern Canada sometime have block heaters installed for cold starting. How cold should it be before you use it? Ask the internet: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/globe-drive/culture/comm...

Engine block heaters are a part of optional or standard cold weather kits in cars sold all over the colder places in the world.

Electric cars have the standard advice to leave them plugged in overnight in cold areas.

Re: Getting a 787 back in the air after a diversion

#30
post #12
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars in northern Canada sometime have block heaters installed for cold starting. How cold should it be before you use it? Ask the internet: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/globe-drive/culture/comm...

In my experience, it's all cars in Canada- I've never seen one that doesn't have it (other than imports). I guess you could probably get away without it on the west coast. Most cars do start though. It’s really a maintenance issue, where it’s bad for your car to start it at -30 (as the linked article says). In my experience, a newer car in decent shape will start consistently.

I live in the habitable zone near the US and while I've heard of one, I've never seen one.
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