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Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

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Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#21

Post by pastor_elm »

simonw wrote: post #15
thetrumanshow wrote: post #8

A few thoughts to add to the discussion, loosely related: 1) If I know exactly where to spend my time for the best rate of return, its likely that I'll have to spend relatively few hours achieving success. 2) For most people, the success they can achieve through just having a plain old job can be had for a mere 40 hours. Anything they want above what 40 hours can grant them should probably be done elsewhere (second j…

Study after study has shown that working 80 hours dramatically reduces your productivity during those hours. I loved what Tobi said in this tweet: https://twitter.com/simonw/status/1210622908143415297 "For creative work, you can't cheat. My believe is that there are 5 creative hours in everyone's day. All I ask of people at Shopify is that 4 of those are channeled into the company." 5 creative hours in a day absolute…

If he's asking for 4 hours of work, then why ask for a 40 hour work week and not a 20 hour one?

40 hours (9-6) is rough enough!

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#22

Post by kobayashi »

simonw wrote: post #15
thetrumanshow wrote: post #8

A few thoughts to add to the discussion, loosely related: 1) If I know exactly where to spend my time for the best rate of return, its likely that I'll have to spend relatively few hours achieving success. 2) For most people, the success they can achieve through just having a plain old job can be had for a mere 40 hours. Anything they want above what 40 hours can grant them should probably be done elsewhere (second j…

Study after study has shown that working 80 hours dramatically reduces your productivity during those hours. I loved what Tobi said in this tweet: https://twitter.com/simonw/status/1210622908143415297 "For creative work, you can't cheat. My believe is that there are 5 creative hours in everyone's day. All I ask of people at Shopify is that 4 of those are channeled into the company." 5 creative hours in a day absolute…

Wrong Twitter link posted. That’s about Apple and RSS

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#23

Post by sokoloff »

pmoriarty wrote: post #13
rogerkirkness wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked there. It's clearly a more focused environment than other SV companies I've seen since. Tobi works hard and does the right thing. I think the challenge was actually the first rung of middle managers not being smart enough to understand the long term focus. That's part that's hard to scale. But the leaders walked the talk and empowered others to do so.

"Tobi works hard and does the right thing." What does it mean to "work hard" at a white collar job when you don't work long hours? Honestly curious.

What does “not working hard” look like? It looks like Facebook, Reddit, news.yc, YouTube, online shopping, Candy Crush, chatting with co-workers, and dicking off in the break/game room.

“Working hard” looks a lot like “not not working hard”.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#24

Post by themagician »

wbharding wrote: post #7

I think we're all rooting for the narrative that it's possible to get ahead working 9-5. But it's hard for me to ignore the survivorship bias at play here. Yes, if your company has a market cap in the billions, you probably don't need to be grinding on the weekends anymore. If you've built a company with amazing programmers and predictable revenue (e.g., dhh/Jason Fried) you probably don't need to grind weekends. But…

I think his point was more about focus. If you know what you’re doing, you can do it on any (reasonable) timeline you want.

Most entrepreneurs are just chasing money like a Leprechaun. Wherever it goes, you follow. Run, turn, grind, pivot.

Shopify has always been really focused. Moves slower than the competition in many ways. They’ve been at it for 15 years. Mostly behind the scenes, not the sexiest stuff.

When you have a simple business you don’t have to grind weekends to try and convince someone to give you more money. The business is self sustaining and profitable.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#25

Post by frank2 »

pastor_elm wrote: post #21
simonw wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Study after study has shown that working 80 hours dramatically reduces your productivity during those hours. I loved what Tobi said in this tweet: https://twitter.com/simonw/status/1210622908143415297 "For creative work, you can't cheat. My believe is that there are 5 creative hours in everyone's day. All I ask of people at Shopify is that 4 of those are channeled into the company." 5 creative hours in a day absolute…

If he's asking for 4 hours of work, then why ask for a 40 hour work week and not a 20 hour one? 40 hours (9-6) is rough enough!

I think he's assuming that people are going to spend some fraction of their time at work advancing their careers and maintaining their relationships with coworkers (and that he does not include that time as "creative work").

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#26

Post by dvt »

What's unfortunate is that on the other side of the coin, "rockstar CEOs" like Elon Musk claim they sleep 4 hours a night and work 90 hour weeks. I think Musk does this mostly for publicity/image reasons and not that it's actually true, but you've got plenty of wantapreneurs parroting this (imo) unhealthy lifestyle.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#27

Post by taytus »

pastor_elm wrote: post #21
simonw wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Study after study has shown that working 80 hours dramatically reduces your productivity during those hours. I loved what Tobi said in this tweet: https://twitter.com/simonw/status/1210622908143415297 "For creative work, you can't cheat. My believe is that there are 5 creative hours in everyone's day. All I ask of people at Shopify is that 4 of those are channeled into the company." 5 creative hours in a day absolute…

If he's asking for 4 hours of work, then why ask for a 40 hour work week and not a 20 hour one? 40 hours (9-6) is rough enough!

No. He is not asking for 4 hours of work. He is asking for laser-focused, 100% productive 4 hours work. You can do additional work in the rest of the hours left that not necessarily is going to require that level of focus.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#28

Post by bwb »

I don't believe anyone really does 80 hours. I just don't think it is possible and I don't think you can call sitting at a desk doing nothing "work".

I've done 60 hours during intense periods just fine... but it was only effective because of the nature of the work I was doing at the time. And, I usually took a break down the road to compensate. In no way was it even 50% creative work.

4 to 6 creative hours seems right, but a lot of work isn't creative. There is also the bullshit work that still has to get done, ie, loading up contacts in a CRM, building and nurturing relationships, reviewing emails, checking links, etc etc etc..

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#29

Post by keyP »

pastor_elm wrote: post #21
simonw wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Study after study has shown that working 80 hours dramatically reduces your productivity during those hours. I loved what Tobi said in this tweet: https://twitter.com/simonw/status/1210622908143415297 "For creative work, you can't cheat. My believe is that there are 5 creative hours in everyone's day. All I ask of people at Shopify is that 4 of those are channeled into the company." 5 creative hours in a day absolute…

If he's asking for 4 hours of work, then why ask for a 40 hour work week and not a 20 hour one? 40 hours (9-6) is rough enough!

I think some of it has to be taken as more of an adage than pragmatically. Firsly, the four hours may not be continuous so having random hours doesn't really work. Additionally, it's caveated with creative work, regardless of job title, a lot of work would involve non-creative aspects which need to be done.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#30

Post by pat2man »

pastor_elm wrote: post #17

Shopify is obsessed with growth like every other public company. They are nothing like Basecamp. They can get away with shorter hours, maybe, because Canadian salaries are relatively low compared to San Francisco, but something will eventually have to give.

Maybe Shopify’s growth is actually due to their shorter hours. Study after study shows this to be true, but for some reason the Bay Area can’t wrap their minds around that fact. In all likelihood Bay Area companies would be more productive if they forced their employees to go home after 40 hours.
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