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IBM Stops Server Side Swift Framework Development

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Re: IBM Stops Server Side Swift Framework Development

#21

Post by nicoburns »

mythz wrote: post #17

Pretty clear signal that there's low appetite for full stack development in Swift. What are other promising future "end-to-end" (i.e. Web / Server / Mobile) development platforms are there? IMO these are the main contenders: - JS / node.js / React Native (Android/iOS) (+ other transpile 2 JS langs, e.g. TypeScript, Clojure, Scala, OCaml, etc) - Kotlin to JavaScript / JVM / Android / Kotlin Native (iOS) - C# Blazor /…

People are actually already building stuff in Rust / The frontend frameworks in Rust are surprisingly good, and I wouldn't be too surprised if this becomes a mainstream option at some point.

That said, I generally find there isn't all that much advantage to sharing a frontend and backend language.

Re: IBM Stops Server Side Swift Framework Development

#22

Post by uwuhn »

wwright wrote: post #8
thrower123 wrote: post #7

Outside of iOS, is there really any traction for Swift development? It certainly feels like it is settling into an also-ran position. And really, mobile apps are turning out to be a dead-end, and people don't seem to be actually investing in native clients anymore, they just slap their website in a browser control.

As an Apple fan and a programming language nerd, I have basically no interest in ever using the language. I spend a lot of time in C++, Haskell, Rust, and Kubernetes, but Swift just feels pointlessly complicated to me. (C++ I think is also pointlessly complicated, but the rest at least have a point ;-)

I'd like to ask what about Swift feels complicated. I'm really curious because I've heard the same thing about Rust, and I also see Swift compared to Rust often.

Re: IBM Stops Server Side Swift Framework Development

#23

Post by paulddraper »

mythz wrote: post #17

Pretty clear signal that there's low appetite for full stack development in Swift. What are other promising future "end-to-end" (i.e. Web / Server / Mobile) development platforms are there? IMO these are the main contenders: - JS / node.js / React Native (Android/iOS) (+ other transpile 2 JS langs, e.g. TypeScript, Clojure, Scala, OCaml, etc) - Kotlin to JavaScript / JVM / Android / Kotlin Native (iOS) - C# Blazor /…

More niche, but Scala is high quality for web/server/Android. (iOS is possible but not as good)

Scala.js / Scala JVM / RoboVM

Re: IBM Stops Server Side Swift Framework Development

#24

Post by mythz »

nicoburns wrote: post #21
mythz wrote: post #17

Pretty clear signal that there's low appetite for full stack development in Swift. What are other promising future "end-to-end" (i.e. Web / Server / Mobile) development platforms are there? IMO these are the main contenders: - JS / node.js / React Native (Android/iOS) (+ other transpile 2 JS langs, e.g. TypeScript, Clojure, Scala, OCaml, etc) - Kotlin to JavaScript / JVM / Android / Kotlin Native (iOS) - C# Blazor /…

People are actually already building stuff in Rust / The frontend frameworks in Rust are surprisingly good, and I wouldn't be too surprised if this becomes a mainstream option at some point. That said, I generally find there isn't all that much advantage to sharing a frontend and backend language.

Yeah they're mentions because it's being done in small niches (there's also Ruby/Haxe + many other transpile to JS languages), I just think they'll always lag behind the other popular and well supported contenders listed. I could be wrong but that's my impression after having worked on all of them which all provide decent development development experiences and end results - though they vary in strength amongst the different categories.

Re: IBM Stops Server Side Swift Framework Development

#25

Post by sansnomme »

mythz wrote: post #17

Pretty clear signal that there's low appetite for full stack development in Swift. What are other promising future "end-to-end" (i.e. Web / Server / Mobile) development platforms are there? IMO these are the main contenders: - JS / node.js / React Native (Android/iOS) (+ other transpile 2 JS langs, e.g. TypeScript, Clojure, Scala, OCaml, etc) - Kotlin to JavaScript / JVM / Android / Kotlin Native (iOS) - C# Blazor /…

Dart, if you consider Flutter an alternative to JS.

Re: IBM Stops Server Side Swift Framework Development

#26

Post by cellularmitosis »

wwright wrote: post #8
thrower123 wrote: post #7

Outside of iOS, is there really any traction for Swift development? It certainly feels like it is settling into an also-ran position. And really, mobile apps are turning out to be a dead-end, and people don't seem to be actually investing in native clients anymore, they just slap their website in a browser control.

As an Apple fan and a programming language nerd, I have basically no interest in ever using the language. I spend a lot of time in C++, Haskell, Rust, and Kubernetes, but Swift just feels pointlessly complicated to me. (C++ I think is also pointlessly complicated, but the rest at least have a point ;-)

Can you elaborate? Personally, I thought Swift’s distinction between value and reference types was fantastic. https://academy.realm.io/posts/andy-matuschak-controlling-co...

Re: IBM Stops Server Side Swift Framework Development

#27

Post by Klonoar »

mythz wrote: post #17

Pretty clear signal that there's low appetite for full stack development in Swift. What are other promising future "end-to-end" (i.e. Web / Server / Mobile) development platforms are there? IMO these are the main contenders: - JS / node.js / React Native (Android/iOS) (+ other transpile 2 JS langs, e.g. TypeScript, Clojure, Scala, OCaml, etc) - Kotlin to JavaScript / JVM / Android / Kotlin Native (iOS) - C# Blazor /…

Rust actually seems to have significant backing from both Mozilla and Microsoft (in varying forms, but it's there).

I mean, if you asked me today to spit out a backend + web frontend + native app, I'd actually have no qualms about committing to Rust as an option. It's nowhere near perfect, but not as far off as people think either.

Re: IBM Stops Server Side Swift Framework Development

#28

Post by happytoexplain »

wwright wrote: post #8
thrower123 wrote: post #7

Outside of iOS, is there really any traction for Swift development? It certainly feels like it is settling into an also-ran position. And really, mobile apps are turning out to be a dead-end, and people don't seem to be actually investing in native clients anymore, they just slap their website in a browser control.

As an Apple fan and a programming language nerd, I have basically no interest in ever using the language. I spend a lot of time in C++, Haskell, Rust, and Kubernetes, but Swift just feels pointlessly complicated to me. (C++ I think is also pointlessly complicated, but the rest at least have a point ;-)

Wow, that's honestly not an opinion I've heard! I've always felt that Swift is one of the clearest, most comprehensible languages I've ever worked with. It also strikes me as a great balance between simplicity and flexibility/power/features. I don't want to ask you to dive into specifics, since I'm not doing so myself, but I'd love to hear if there's any standout examples of unnecessary complexity for you.

Re: IBM Stops Server Side Swift Framework Development

#29

Post by verttii »

zepto wrote: post #11
wwright wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Apple fan and a programming language nerd, I have basically no interest in ever using the language. I spend a lot of time in C++, Haskell, Rust, and Kubernetes, but Swift just feels pointlessly complicated to me. (C++ I think is also pointlessly complicated, but the rest at least have a point ;-)

Swift is no more complicated than Haskell or Rust.

But Swift has had a more specific target platform, where it wouldn't make sense to produce excessively high level generic abstractions.

Whereas a language like Haskell is happy to try some absurdly abstract concepts in the interest of promoting computer science.

Re: IBM Stops Server Side Swift Framework Development

#30

Post by crymer11 »

mythz wrote: post #17

Pretty clear signal that there's low appetite for full stack development in Swift. What are other promising future "end-to-end" (i.e. Web / Server / Mobile) development platforms are there? IMO these are the main contenders: - JS / node.js / React Native (Android/iOS) (+ other transpile 2 JS langs, e.g. TypeScript, Clojure, Scala, OCaml, etc) - Kotlin to JavaScript / JVM / Android / Kotlin Native (iOS) - C# Blazor /…

ClojureScript / Clojure / React Native
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