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Unexpected Page Fault In Virtualized Environment Advisory

intel.com

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Re: Unexpected Page Fault In Virtualized Environment Advisory

#21
post #15
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AMD never had one as boneheaded as Meltdown. Intel keeps having more and more uncovered, and according to researchers who went on the record in the NYT, they are not handling reported vulnerabilities quickly or thoroughly. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/12/technology/intel-chip-fix...

IIRC intel stopped doing as much validation like 10ish years ago (so, 2009/2010). it would be nice to see then publish a paper about how those decisions lead into these problems...

Intel willingly admitting mistakes is just about as likely as hell freezing over

Re: Unexpected Page Fault In Virtualized Environment Advisory

#22
post #17
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that actually better in this case? Intel found the issue internally. Nobody knows what it is. The advisory isn't sufficient information to figure it out. People can patch at their leisure, fairly sure that nobody is about to pop up with a 1-day exploit for it. With an open source CPU, by now someone would have looked at the commits that fixed the Verilog/microcode, figured out what the bug is, and there'd be a con…

> This is one of those times when from a practical perspective proprietary seems to win. I'm not sure about that, but I must say that Intel is being surprisingly candid. Similar errata have been swept under a rug and published a dozen at a time with no workarounds for years.

Yeah, this feels like active exploitation.

Re: Unexpected Page Fault In Virtualized Environment Advisory

#23
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least with an open source one more than a handful of engineers at a single company could work on the problem.

Is that actually better in this case? Intel found the issue internally. Nobody knows what it is. The advisory isn't sufficient information to figure it out. People can patch at their leisure, fairly sure that nobody is about to pop up with a 1-day exploit for it. With an open source CPU, by now someone would have looked at the commits that fixed the Verilog/microcode, figured out what the bug is, and there'd be a con…

Many open source systems exist that fix vulnerabilities in a timely manner without falling apart. Linux, BSD, etc.

Re: Unexpected Page Fault In Virtualized Environment Advisory

#24
post #8
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hence why we need open source CPUs pretty badly.

I'm pretty sure that high performance open source CPUs will have their own obscure problems. Too much complexity, too many dependencies, too many possible feature interactions.

They will, but you'll be able to understand the problem, the fix, and how it combines with other fixes.

I can def see a world soon where all of Intel's woes have combined to the point that they've run out of patch space for their microcode updates, and you have to pick and choose what you want mitigations for.

Re: Unexpected Page Fault In Virtualized Environment Advisory

#25
post #14
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AMD never had one as boneheaded as Meltdown. Intel keeps having more and more uncovered, and according to researchers who went on the record in the NYT, they are not handling reported vulnerabilities quickly or thoroughly. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/12/technology/intel-chip-fix...

Intel is also the most used processor in the market at the moment, once that balance shifts, more attention will be paid to AMD processor so we'll potentially have more vulns uncovered.

I'm inclined to believe that this is actually the case and not that AMD wrote more secure software. All software has security vulnerabilities, the more eyes on the software the more of them are found.

Re: Unexpected Page Fault In Virtualized Environment Advisory

#26

Intel now runs bug bounty program with up to $100k payouts ( https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/security-center/bug-... ), where one of the requirements is not to leak vulnerability details.

Isn't that a pretty standard bug bounty requirement? The idea is that you submit the bug to the company and they fix it before it is disclosed.

It is standard in the sense that it's not uncommon. But about as frequently it's not a requirement. Many companies allow complete or partial vulnerability disclosure once resolution is complete. It's often on a case by case basis and requires approval.

Re: Unexpected Page Fault In Virtualized Environment Advisory

#27
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intel is also the most used processor in the market at the moment, once that balance shifts, more attention will be paid to AMD processor so we'll potentially have more vulns uncovered.

I'm inclined to believe that this is actually the case and not that AMD wrote more secure software. All software has security vulnerabilities, the more eyes on the software the more of them are found.

This isn't "Software" It's hardware (well both but lets not get too pedantic) and everyone was throwing cache and speculative exploits by the shovelful at both AMD and Intel. AMDs are indeed at the very least, "Less insecure."

Way more shit stuck to Intel for one reason. The speed advantage Intel had been lording over AMD (Besides compiler shenanigans) was all the corners they were cutting with there speculative execution, et al.

Amazing timing that; AMD closing those benchmark gaps and the mass meltdown mitigations in Intel products... all in the same decade Intel was court ordered to fix their unfair C compiler. Intel's domination is simply over...

Re: Unexpected Page Fault In Virtualized Environment Advisory

#28
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least with an open source one more than a handful of engineers at a single company could work on the problem.

Is that actually better in this case? Intel found the issue internally. Nobody knows what it is. The advisory isn't sufficient information to figure it out. People can patch at their leisure, fairly sure that nobody is about to pop up with a 1-day exploit for it. With an open source CPU, by now someone would have looked at the commits that fixed the Verilog/microcode, figured out what the bug is, and there'd be a con…

You don't know that such a command doesn't exist for the Intel vulnerabilities, but hasn't been released to the wild or public.

Re: Unexpected Page Fault In Virtualized Environment Advisory

#29
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least with an open source one more than a handful of engineers at a single company could work on the problem.

Is that actually better in this case? Intel found the issue internally. Nobody knows what it is. The advisory isn't sufficient information to figure it out. People can patch at their leisure, fairly sure that nobody is about to pop up with a 1-day exploit for it. With an open source CPU, by now someone would have looked at the commits that fixed the Verilog/microcode, figured out what the bug is, and there'd be a con…

Is that actually better in this case? Intel found the issue internally. Nobody knows what it is. The advisory isn't sufficient information to figure it out. People can patch at their leisure, fairly sure that nobody is about to pop up with a 1-day exploit for it.

That's pretty bad, actually. It means a determined adversary can simply look at the patch to figure out how to exploit vulnerable systems. (Presumably there exists a way to look at the actual unencrypted bytes being modified; if so, you can work out what it's doing.)

And since people can patch at their leisure, a determined adversary will have lots of targets to choose from after they analyze the patch.

To be fair, I don't know much about CPU microcode. But while it's true that lonewolf hackers are less likely to be a threat here, a threat does exist: governments are increasingly turning to industrial espionage-type practices (apparently even the NSA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial...) and this type of exploit seems, at a glance, pretty lucrative: unauthenticated users can achieve privilege escalation.

It's easy to imagine some facility somewhere of industrious Chinese reverse engineers who are pretty darn good at this, and that it's their full-time job to find and weaponize such exploits. In fact, swap out "Chinese" with "American" and you get the NSA.

EDIT: It turns out that I am mistaken: Intel microcode updates are encrypted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Microcode#Microcode_upda...

> With the Pentium there are two layers of encryption and the precise details explicitly not documented Intel, instead being only known to less than ten employees.

I guess I'll leave the comment up, since... well, I was formerly a pentester, and it seemed like a logical sequence of arguments. That's where I learned about the technique of looking at binary diffs to work out what security patches were doing.

It's very strange to me that this is possible to encrypt, though. Isn't it "just" a matter of getting your hands on a processor + the update? Why is it impossible to dump the microcode as it's being decrypted? Sure, you won't be able to analyze the patch before it's decrypted, but are we just relying on the idea that it's too much work for someone to figure out how to listen in on the decrypting process?

Following that Wikipedia citation, the quote about it being in the heads of less than 10 employees is from 1997, so it's ancient information. I'm curious what the current state of the art is.

Re: Unexpected Page Fault In Virtualized Environment Advisory

#30
post #21
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC intel stopped doing as much validation like 10ish years ago (so, 2009/2010). it would be nice to see then publish a paper about how those decisions lead into these problems...

Intel willingly admitting mistakes is just about as likely as hell freezing over

Which happened earlier today with Microsoft teams for linux
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