Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor • Hacker News Board

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#21

Post by Despegar » Sun, Dec 01, 2019, 3:22 PM UTC

ggambetta wrote: post #13

OK, unpopular opinion follows, bring the downvotes. 1) All of my experiences related to unions have been negative. Things become more bureaucratic and inefficient ("oh no, you can't move that box, we need to wait for the union person whose job description is to move the box"), people are promoted because of seniority and not because of merit, bad performers up to and including flagrant criminals can't be fired becaus…

>I get that unions might be necessary in industries where workers are actually exploited, to protect said workers. But FAANG engineers are pretty much in the opposite situation. I don't like people creating an us-vs-them situation that doesn't exist

The us-vs-them situation has always existed and it's always been political. It's been the monolith of management vs an individual worker. If you can't imagine anyone but blue collar workers having a union I'd point you to the various unions of Hollywood. If FAANG is as cushy as you say, there's not going to be any contentious labor disputes between management and workers. But unions would balance the power between them.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#22

Post by seibelj » Sun, Dec 01, 2019, 3:26 PM UTC

ggambetta wrote: post #13

OK, unpopular opinion follows, bring the downvotes. 1) All of my experiences related to unions have been negative. Things become more bureaucratic and inefficient ("oh no, you can't move that box, we need to wait for the union person whose job description is to move the box"), people are promoted because of seniority and not because of merit, bad performers up to and including flagrant criminals can't be fired becaus…

College-educated people who make good salaries have this vision of unions as the silver bullet solution for the working class. I don’t think they know any working class people with union experience, as unions are unquestionably a mixed bag.

For some anecdata, my dad’s a musician and a guy he plays with is a janitor for his full time job, and he is diehard anti-union out of life experience.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#23

Post by bluejekyll » Sun, Dec 01, 2019, 3:29 PM UTC

0x445442 wrote: post #14

> They’re part of a three-member Republican cabal Whatever the merits of the article I have a hard time taking it seriously with this kind of language. If this kind of language were used in the other direction the author would immediately be labeled a tin-foil hat conspiracy theorist.

Is it the cabal label that bothers you? For context, the sentence before:

> Ring and Kaplan want to reconsider the longtime ban on labor spying. It’s a sleazy idea, but typical for these two.

So they are working together, and perhaps “cabal” is too colorful of a term, as it also implies doing it in secret. It would appear they’re quite open about it.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#24

Post by deogeo » Sun, Dec 01, 2019, 3:31 PM UTC

ggambetta wrote: post #13

OK, unpopular opinion follows, bring the downvotes. 1) All of my experiences related to unions have been negative. Things become more bureaucratic and inefficient ("oh no, you can't move that box, we need to wait for the union person whose job description is to move the box"), people are promoted because of seniority and not because of merit, bad performers up to and including flagrant criminals can't be fired becaus…

> All of my experiences related to unions have been negative.

Except the 8 hour work-day and weekends, I guess? https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/sep...

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#25

Post by claudeganon » Sun, Dec 01, 2019, 3:34 PM UTC

deogeo wrote: post #24

ggambetta wrote: post #13

OK, unpopular opinion follows, bring the downvotes. 1) All of my experiences related to unions have been negative. Things become more bureaucratic and inefficient ("oh no, you can't move that box, we need to wait for the union person whose job description is to move the box"), people are promoted because of seniority and not because of merit, bad performers up to and including flagrant criminals can't be fired becaus…

> All of my experiences related to unions have been negative. Except the 8 hour work-day and weekends, I guess? https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/sep...

Or really any social benefits carved out from the state which have relied on unions for their mass organizing and backing of political candidates who have one them.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#26

Post by friedman23 » Sun, Dec 01, 2019, 3:35 PM UTC

claudeganon wrote: post #20

Counter to what you see touted on this website, unions are not solely about securing additional material benefits for workers. They are and have always been about changing workplaces from top-down, authoritarian models to ones where workers have a say in their company’s work and overall direction. They’re about acknowledging that none of these structures function or accomplish anything without labor and shifting thei…

If I buy a sewing machine and hire someone to operate it, outside of basic safety rights why should the employee have any say in what I decide should be created with it?

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#27

Post by ggambetta » Sun, Dec 01, 2019, 3:37 PM UTC

deogeo wrote: post #24

ggambetta wrote: post #13

OK, unpopular opinion follows, bring the downvotes. 1) All of my experiences related to unions have been negative. Things become more bureaucratic and inefficient ("oh no, you can't move that box, we need to wait for the union person whose job description is to move the box"), people are promoted because of seniority and not because of merit, bad performers up to and including flagrant criminals can't be fired becaus…

> All of my experiences related to unions have been negative. Except the 8 hour work-day and weekends, I guess? https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/sep...

That was in 1938. The status quo is different today, so that doesn't really apply.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#28

Post by bluejekyll » Sun, Dec 01, 2019, 3:37 PM UTC

claudeganon wrote: post #20

Counter to what you see touted on this website, unions are not solely about securing additional material benefits for workers. They are and have always been about changing workplaces from top-down, authoritarian models to ones where workers have a say in their company’s work and overall direction. They’re about acknowledging that none of these structures function or accomplish anything without labor and shifting thei…

I’m not sure that this is a pro-union stance or not, but I’ve always thought that workers of a public company should be allowed to elect a board representative (number of seats to allocate determined by something associated with the number of employees). Would this help bring that worker view/control to the company?

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#29

Post by claudeganon » Sun, Dec 01, 2019, 3:40 PM UTC

friedman23 wrote: post #26

claudeganon wrote: post #20

Counter to what you see touted on this website, unions are not solely about securing additional material benefits for workers. They are and have always been about changing workplaces from top-down, authoritarian models to ones where workers have a say in their company’s work and overall direction. They’re about acknowledging that none of these structures function or accomplish anything without labor and shifting thei…

If I buy a sewing machine and hire someone to operate it, outside of basic safety rights why should the employee have any say in what I decide should be created with it?

Why shouldn’t they? Does owning a sewing machine suddenly bestow upon you dictatorial powers?

I’m being a bit hyperbolic here, but it’s funny that the circumstances you cite (sewing, basic safety) actually drove unionization in the early 20th century.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_...

Turns out that if you don’t change the relations of power in your workplace, hold your bosses to account, they have a tendency to not be too concerned about your well-being.

Re: Corporate Spies Are Watching Organized Labor

#30

Post by ggambetta » Sun, Dec 01, 2019, 3:41 PM UTC

claudeganon wrote: post #20

Counter to what you see touted on this website, unions are not solely about securing additional material benefits for workers. They are and have always been about changing workplaces from top-down, authoritarian models to ones where workers have a say in their company’s work and overall direction. They’re about acknowledging that none of these structures function or accomplish anything without labor and shifting thei…

I’ve yet to see any rational or coherent defense of why these (or any) companies should function like democracies.

Company X offers to pay me to do job Y. My two options, as I see it, are taking the job and doing Y, or refusing to do Y and therefore not taking the job. I don't understand the logic of "I'll take the job but then refuse to do Y", except if I assume ill-intent from the person taking the job.