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Simon Peyton-Jones on computer science in school curriculums [video]

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Re: Simon Peyton-Jones on computer science in school curriculums [video]

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was required to take CS107 in school, you couldn't test out of it. It was taught by a chemistry professor. He knew nothing about programming except that he thought it was cool, and often taught us a lot of incorrect information. Being a jackass 18-year-old, I corrected him on all of this. I got 100% on every lab, assignment, and exam... and got a B in the class ("participation!"). It was about this time that I real…

> It was about this time that I realized college might not be the thing for me. Frequently, there are higher caliber instructors in colleges than high schools. If your goal is to learn something you don't know, you may have made the wrong choice.

It varies my first year Computing teacher at high school (15) was very good but she left and a maths teacher took over but by that point I was learning faster from books than he was.

But because I was in the lower stream CSE (the exams for those supposed to leave at 16) they wouldn't let me take Computing at A level - even though I scored the max level in computing and maths.

Re: Simon Peyton-Jones on computer science in school curriculums [video]

#22
post #20
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I understand why an academic thinks this is a good idea. More jobs for the boys. This isn't fair. Academics usually have a true love of their subject and desire to teach that to the next generation. >Third, try explaining programming without computers to a child. There are so many abstract concepts...it is just insane. They teach many abstract concepts. The current curricula for many subjects are already full of ab…

Agreed. Besides, SPJ is not advocating teaching without computers at all. He just discusses de-emphasizing the "cool tech" aspect of CS, but also says that completely excluding computers wouldn't be much fun. The relevant slide states about programming (and computers and tech): - Crucial, motivating, and "ground truth". - But also seductive, distracting, and risks excessive focus on technology details It's hard for m…

Whether he is advocating it or not, this is essentially how things have turned out. In the UK, they are examining on DS&A for 16 year olds. Yes, there is a "programming" module but there is no actual content...the questions are: "how do you declare a variable", "what is the difference between for/while", and about different paradigms (these aren't taught in themselves, you just need to know what they are).

Btw, to be totally clear: the reason why this doesn't work is because we have been here before. The majority of the UK's leaders grow up doing whatever they think is valuable, and can totally disregard what other people need/want. The idea of practical knowledge makes no sense. You see this in CS courses that have no programming (again, my city has a very good CS dept...turns out grads who have only written a few hundred lines in their life). And it happens in a ton of other courses.

I get the idea of knowledge for it's own sake is very important for some people. But, again, look at the practice...this is how it is has turned out.

Re: Simon Peyton-Jones on computer science in school curriculums [video]

#23
post #19
post #5

Just my 2c but this is one of the worst ideas. First, this was designed by politicians who I am sure everyone on this sub would hate (basically, the Brexit boys). The stated aim was to be more elitist: make subjects much harder, encourage smart children...and dumb children...well...sorry, if you are dumb when we test you at 11 then you will be digging ditches. Second, the logic for this came from people who had never…

Very valid points! It smacks of transplanting a rose-tinted view of 1950s academia into schools. Teaching students in a modern school environment is a world apart from academia. Also, entirely predictable down-voting, I imagine from engineers who have no experience of teaching.

"Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Simon Peyton-Jones on computer science in school curriculums [video]

#24
post #17
post #5

Just my 2c but this is one of the worst ideas. First, this was designed by politicians who I am sure everyone on this sub would hate (basically, the Brexit boys). The stated aim was to be more elitist: make subjects much harder, encourage smart children...and dumb children...well...sorry, if you are dumb when we test you at 11 then you will be digging ditches. Second, the logic for this came from people who had never…

> I understand why an academic thinks this is a good idea. More jobs for the boys. This isn't fair. Academics usually have a true love of their subject and desire to teach that to the next generation. >Third, try explaining programming without computers to a child. There are so many abstract concepts...it is just insane. They teach many abstract concepts. The current curricula for many subjects are already full of ab…

That is a very generous interpretation of academics. In the UK, academics are notoriously militant (i.e. they strike pretty much constantly, have a huge media/lobbying profile...they aren't like the BMA but they are definitely up there). Even if you are going beyond nationality, it is a fairly well understood aspect of human nature that, in tertiary education, there is a tendency to teach whatever the teacher finds fun. The more arcane, the better (CS/Econ are the biggest areas for this).

And the problem isn't that the ideas are abstract. But that they are abstract relative to what the task actually is. It is like teaching a cookery course but not doing any cooking. And presumably, you are saying that it isn't difficult to teach these things because you know that? I can tell you it is false because many CS universities in the UK don't manage to produce grads that can program...easy though...amirite?

I didn't say it was pointless. I implied it was pointless to teach to children. And you are right, we need significantly less professors and significantly more doers. The UK has a massive quantity of people with immense talent wasting their lives with arcanum. The only value produced is in teaching this stuff other people...that isn't useful knowledge. Trying to control that process by brainwashing children based on what you think is valuable knowledge is not only a disturbing pattern of thought, it is utterly pointless. We have had this system (the UK civil service used to hire based on knowledge of Greek/Latin), it doesn't work. Give people useful knowledge, give them opportunity to innovate, and they will get on with it themselves. The problem we have is that we encourage people to waste their lives at universities (I say this as someone with postgrad degrees btw...you can learn useful things but the most useful thing is actually using your skills to help other people).

Re: Simon Peyton-Jones on computer science in school curriculums [video]

#25
post #23
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very valid points! It smacks of transplanting a rose-tinted view of 1950s academia into schools. Teaching students in a modern school environment is a world apart from academia. Also, entirely predictable down-voting, I imagine from engineers who have no experience of teaching.

" Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. " https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

But commenting about commenting on voting on comments is interesting?

Law firms should hire from this site. Utter goldmine.

Re: Simon Peyton-Jones on computer science in school curriculums [video]

#27
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. " https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

But commenting about commenting on voting on comments is interesting? Law firms should hire from this site. Utter goldmine.

Well, the moderation comments are a special case. They're out-of-band feedback signals. In case it helps, they're even more tedious to write than they are to read. Yes they break the guidelines too, in the way that many medicines are toxic, but one uses them when there's no better alternative.

Alas, the system doesn't fix this without moderation. It hasn't yet become self-correcting [1], which is why I'm still doing it [2].

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7605892

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7505041

Re: Simon Peyton-Jones on computer science in school curriculums [video]

#28
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. " https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

But commenting about commenting on voting on comments is interesting? Law firms should hire from this site. Utter goldmine.

[deleted]

Re: Simon Peyton-Jones on computer science in school curriculums [video]

#29
post #4

I really enjoy listening to SPJ on almost any topic. He seems so friendly as well as knowledgeable. And humble! I already like Haskell, but I bet he could convince me to like almost anything else.

Here is another one which I've really liked over the years: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NRrUvqQlnY&t

He is so warm and spontaneous, yet smart and obviously can invent exact and concrete things!

Re: Simon Peyton-Jones on computer science in school curriculums [video]

#30

Shriram Krishnamurthi of Brown University already accomplished this and gave a great talk about the problems of creating a new course, when you can just shove it into the existing math classes without needing to hire thousands of specialist teachers or worry about yet another mandatory class where schools reduce the rigor, or worry about students not even being able to take the class because they are in remedial clas…

> when you can just shove it into the existing math classes

This is how it's already done in the UK, and has been for decades. When I was in high-school (or rather the UK equivalent) about twenty years ago we did discrete maths, algorithms, and data structures in the regular maths classes. I don't think computers were even mentioned - it was all described as maths topics.

And this was a bog-standard state school.

So when I want to university interviews I was already able to describe for example how to implement a hash table.

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