Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Lockout-Tagout

en.wikipedia.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 113 posts

Re: Lockout-Tagout

#21

Post by taneq »

ebiester wrote: post #13
taneq wrote: post #9

After working in mining for a long while, where this kind of isolation procedure is standard and is taken very seriously (pretty much any breach of procedure is an instantly firable offense) it's terrifying coming back home and seeing people working on house wiring etc. with nothing more than a turned-off circuit breaker protecting them from electrocution or other injury. I've seen some trades start to pick up isolat…

How would you recommend people working on their own house implement anything more than turning off the circuit breaker? (I'm not doing anything electrical in general, but sometimes small fixes are necessary for home owners.)

It doesn't have to be anything fancy - you could just fit a hasp to the fuse box (if one's not already attached) to allow you to lock it closed with a padlock. Then you keep the only key for that padlock on your person until you've finished the job.

If you want to get fancier or if others are going to need to access the fuse box while you're working, you can get "lock dogs" which let you lock individual circuit breakers. Then you just lock off the one for the circuit you're working on.

Re: Lockout-Tagout

#22

Post by NamTaf »

downerending wrote: post #11

Too lazy to include a link, but I believe when work is done on electrified train rails, they attach a huge bar across the power rails to short them. If they're inadvertently powered, breakers elsewhere trip. (Or, worst case, the bar melts?)

I'm not sure how this works for electrified rails (i.e. a third-rail that provides power to the engines), however for a standard rail line (i.e. just 2 tracks, with either an overhead providing electricity, or diesel engines) is used as a method of safety using the track signalling.

Specifically, in many rail signalling network systems, a signal will turn red when it detects a short between the two rails in its section (i.e. an axle rolls into it). It will then turn back green when that short disappears. Workers can therefore clip something between both rails, which triggers the signal relay and makes the signal light green.

This is absolutely not isolation & lockout though, because it doesn't actually remove the energy source. That's not to say it's not a valuable process though, but an isolation & lockout for this sort of circumstance either involves locking the track switches to direct traffic away from the worksite, or installing a derailer [1] on the track that phyiscally throws the train off the rail into the dirt so it stops well clear of the work site.

The above obviously doesn't work if you're working on a running system, though (which does happen, occasionally). In that instance, the track clip lets trains stop at the red light, radio to the worksite, have the worksite clear, then remove the clip, let the train through, then resume work. It's different levels of safety for different perceived risks.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derail

Re: Lockout-Tagout

#23

Post by taneq »

devb wrote: post #16
ebiester wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you recommend people working on their own house implement anything more than turning off the circuit breaker? (I'm not doing anything electrical in general, but sometimes small fixes are necessary for home owners.)

I think OP is referring to a job site where people coming and going have access to the panel. If you're home alone or only have a small handful of people to keep in contact with then it's far less of an issue.

In those cases you're 'probably fine' but if someone gets home while you're working, sees that the power is out, and goes to check the circuit breaker (as you've probably trained them to do) then you could still get zapped without warning.

Re: Lockout-Tagout

#24

Post by csours »

RandomBacon wrote: post #12

Always verify the equipment you are working on is still physically LO-TO. I heard a story about one person who LO-TO a breaker on Friday, and Monday it had power when he went to work on it. The guy went to check the breaker, and the breaker was sitting on the ground with the lock still attached, and a new breaker in its place.

Hooo boy. I think there might be a few more breakers on the ground if that was me.

Re: Lockout-Tagout

#25

Post by black6 »

n0ric wrote: post #15
black6 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience this is not true. Some LO/TO locks even have plastic shackles and bodies (for the obvious electrical work). They’re not supposed to be pick proof and super secure—they’re a visual and physical reminder that the system is secured for worker safety. If a lock needs to be removed by someone other than the lock owner there is an OSHA process to remove out that involves cutting and discarding that particu…

I recommend watching LockPickingLawyer's video on the lock the parent comment is talking about: https://youtu.be/y4XGY0_cwcM . Master used a very pick resistant core for their LOTO locks but skimped out on the higher priced general-use models.

That is baffling as he says in the video! I’ve never seen anyone on any worksite I’ve been on trying to pick a LO/TO lock, so I just assumed the cores were just as insubstantial.

Re: Lockout-Tagout

#26

Post by caseymarquis »

taneq wrote: post #9

After working in mining for a long while, where this kind of isolation procedure is standard and is taken very seriously (pretty much any breach of procedure is an instantly firable offense) it's terrifying coming back home and seeing people working on house wiring etc. with nothing more than a turned-off circuit breaker protecting them from electrocution or other injury. I've seen some trades start to pick up isolat…

After working on high voltage circuits as a lineman for a couple years, and currently writing software for industrial machinery and regularly working in industrial machining cabinets, I think that applying the same level of precaution used for mining to doing minor work on a 100V circuit is being a bit overzealous. To be fair, you're never going to get hurt by being superfluously safe, but at the same time I don't expect my dog is going to flip the circuit breaker on me, so I'm probably not going to resort to LO-TO when doing some minor electrical work when home alone.

Re: Lockout-Tagout

#27

Post by fingerlocks »

ebiester wrote: post #13
taneq wrote: post #9

After working in mining for a long while, where this kind of isolation procedure is standard and is taken very seriously (pretty much any breach of procedure is an instantly firable offense) it's terrifying coming back home and seeing people working on house wiring etc. with nothing more than a turned-off circuit breaker protecting them from electrocution or other injury. I've seen some trades start to pick up isolat…

How would you recommend people working on their own house implement anything more than turning off the circuit breaker? (I'm not doing anything electrical in general, but sometimes small fixes are necessary for home owners.)

If we’re being honest with ourselves, few (if any) home owner is ever going to go through with locking circuit breakers. Because it’s completely overkill.

In the Real World, you’ll just tell your wife/kids/roommates “Hey don’t touch the fuse panel until I’m done doing this thing” and it’s not an issue.

Re: Lockout-Tagout

#28

Post by taneq »

caseymarquis wrote: post #26
taneq wrote: post #9

After working in mining for a long while, where this kind of isolation procedure is standard and is taken very seriously (pretty much any breach of procedure is an instantly firable offense) it's terrifying coming back home and seeing people working on house wiring etc. with nothing more than a turned-off circuit breaker protecting them from electrocution or other injury. I've seen some trades start to pick up isolat…

After working on high voltage circuits as a lineman for a couple years, and currently writing software for industrial machinery and regularly working in industrial machining cabinets, I think that applying the same level of precaution used for mining to doing minor work on a 100V circuit is being a bit overzealous. To be fair, you're never going to get hurt by being superfluously safe, but at the same time I don't ex…

Honestly if our mains was 110V rather than "240V" (read 250-260V thanks to all of the rooftop solar in our area) I'd probably be a bit more casual about it. I've been nipped by ~100V from poor earthing and it's not that bad. 240V hurts.

Re: Lockout-Tagout

#29

Post by Igelau »

Can we talk about how bad that lockout hasp graphic is? It looks like a drunk person broke the last crayon drawing it and just decided to have Inkscape run a trace on what they had.

Re: Lockout-Tagout

#30

Post by nullc »

ebiester wrote: post #13
taneq wrote: post #9

After working in mining for a long while, where this kind of isolation procedure is standard and is taken very seriously (pretty much any breach of procedure is an instantly firable offense) it's terrifying coming back home and seeing people working on house wiring etc. with nothing more than a turned-off circuit breaker protecting them from electrocution or other injury. I've seen some trades start to pick up isolat…

How would you recommend people working on their own house implement anything more than turning off the circuit breaker? (I'm not doing anything electrical in general, but sometimes small fixes are necessary for home owners.)

They make clip on lockouts for residential breakers.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004J173I8/ref=twister_B007NAGJJG?...

Personally, I just lock the panel.

If your panel can't be locked a big piece of masking tape across the door, holding it shut, with "NOPE. call " written with a sharpie should do the job. :)

FWIW, the first photograph in that WP article with the tagged panel is one of mine... from close to 15 years ago.

Post reply on HN