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Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils Facebook's Chinese Employees

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Re: Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils Facebook's Chinese Employees

#21

Post by hangonhn »

nkrisc wrote: post #18
paganel wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no bias against China as a country, or Chinese people. At some point you also have to make it about the people, too, after all the Chinese Communist Party is comprised of Chinese people.

What percentage of Chinese citizens are actual party members? Honest question, I have no idea, but if I had to wager I would guess not a very large percentage.

90 million according to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_China

It's hard to assume that the CCP doesn't have the mandate of the people. We just don't know one way or another since there are no free elections.

Re: Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils Facebook's Chinese Employees

#22

Post by nailer »

thorwasdfasdf wrote: post #17
scarmig wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might suit both anti- and pro-PRC propagandists, but it's not reflective of reality on the ground. Chinese people have plenty of self-conception, independent thoughts, and the ability to distinguish between themselves and their government and objectively judge government actions. At least, no less so than people anywhere.

Anyone who's ever lived in china for several years will tell you chinese nationalism is extremely intense. Even in america, if you have a conversation with a chinese person about the PRC or even just economic conditions in china, that person will in any case, always defend the PRC under any condition, no matter what the PRC has done, even if they themselves are against the PRC and agree with what your saying.

Anecdote (not data, not agreeing or disagreeing, just one point):

I have good mainland Chinese friends who are members of the CCP. They don't believe in communism, they're members of the CCP because 'it looks good to have the CCP on your CV'. They know the government killed people in Tiananmen square.

They do link the CCP to the fact they're richer than their parents (I see this as the US deciding to 'open China' back in the 70s). And they value stability more than the individual.

Re: Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils Facebook's Chinese Employees

#23

Post by chongli »

umvi wrote: post #7

Title should read: "Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils (Chinese) Facebook Employees" At any rate, I applaud Zuckerberg for actually having a spine when it comes to China, unlike Tim Cook.

Zuckerberg for actually having a spine when it comes to China, unlike Tim Cook

What spine? Facebook is blocked in China. It costs him nothing to take this stance. If Tim Cook tried the same, China could seize the factories and Apple would have no product to sell.

I'm sure in private Tim Cook would admit that Apple needs to diversify their manufacturing out of China as a hedge against the risk of a hostile government there. That is a process which cannot happen overnight, however, and so in the mean time it's best to tiptoe around the sleeping dragon.

Re: Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils Facebook's Chinese Employees

#24

Post by mistersquid »

throwGuardian wrote: post #5

Puzzle me this - as an employee in the US, for a company paying well above market for your labor, with generous perks and the freedom to speak out against the employer (which is likely absent in China), the response of the Chinese workforce seems rather paradoxical - criticising an accommodating work environment, which, mind you, is only possible because of freedom of speech Or, the press is out to make a mountain of…

> the response of the Chinese workforce seems rather paradoxical - criticising an accommodatung work environment, which, mind you, is only possible because of freedom of speech

You’re questioning, and implicitly criticizing, these workers for exercising their access to free speech, for complaining about an aspect of their employer’s position about their country of origin.

Such an implicit critique undermines the foundations on which free speech stands. Speech is free regardless of the benefits and privileges granted to those who would speak.

Re: Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils Facebook's Chinese Employees

#25

Post by Spooky23 »

throwGuardian wrote: post #5

Puzzle me this - as an employee in the US, for a company paying well above market for your labor, with generous perks and the freedom to speak out against the employer (which is likely absent in China), the response of the Chinese workforce seems rather paradoxical - criticising an accommodating work environment, which, mind you, is only possible because of freedom of speech Or, the press is out to make a mountain of…

Who's to say those employee actions are not being scrutinized by others and reported back?

As the US and China implement different tit for tat policies, relatives at home can be punished for the actions of relatives abroad.

Re: Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils Facebook's Chinese Employees

#26

Post by nailer »

paganel wrote: post #14
nailer wrote: post #3

> complaints of anti-China bias Zuckerberg is quite clearly being critical of the Chinese Communist Party, who by nature of being authoritarian, have no mandate from the people of the PRC. There is no bias against China as a country, or Chinese people. Zuck is merely judging an authoritarian government for it's own actions. Shame on those who would wish to conflate the two.

> There is no bias against China as a country, or Chinese people. At some point you also have to make it about the people, too, after all the Chinese Communist Party is comprised of Chinese people.

No you don't. The Chinese Communist Party being made up of Chinese people mean does not mean criticism of the CCP is criticism of Chinese people.

Re: Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils Facebook's Chinese Employees

#27

Post by larnmar »

umvi wrote: post #7

Title should read: "Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils (Chinese) Facebook Employees" At any rate, I applaud Zuckerberg for actually having a spine when it comes to China, unlike Tim Cook.

It should read “Chinese Government”, not China, too.

The Chinese government was not elected by the Chinese, is not in any sense a legitimate representative of the Chinese, and has no more right to rule over China than I do. Conflating criticism of the CCP with criticism of the country that they illegitimately rule is CCP propaganda techniques 101.

Re: Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils Facebook's Chinese Employees

#28

Post by larnmar »

thorwasdfasdf wrote: post #17
scarmig wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might suit both anti- and pro-PRC propagandists, but it's not reflective of reality on the ground. Chinese people have plenty of self-conception, independent thoughts, and the ability to distinguish between themselves and their government and objectively judge government actions. At least, no less so than people anywhere.

Anyone who's ever lived in china for several years will tell you chinese nationalism is extremely intense. Even in america, if you have a conversation with a chinese person about the PRC or even just economic conditions in china, that person will in any case, always defend the PRC under any condition, no matter what the PRC has done, even if they themselves are against the PRC and agree with what your saying.

Is that nationalism or just a background knowledge that your whole family could wind up in a prison camp if you say the wrong thing?

Re: Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils Facebook's Chinese Employees

#29

Post by frank_nitti »

hangonhn wrote: post #20
thorwasdfasdf wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In order to understand why this conflation is occurring, you need to understand chinese culture. Chinese culture is very different in some fundamental ways that's hard for western countries to understand. First of all, the people in China are trained from a very early age to think of themselves as indistinguishable from their country and their government. There literally is no concept of self in China. People are tau…

Come on. That's patently not true. Seriously. I'm born Chinese and my family is Chinese. We were never "trained". I'm highly critical of the Chinese government (though I left fairly young) as are some members of my family. Some of them were born and raised there. Come on. Stop it with the stereotypes. People are complicated and have multitudes. "People are tauhgt to think of themselves as completely the same as their…

You don't really have to look much further than the US public opinion and media messaging on Israel to verify that there is a double standard in place here.

Is criticizing a government's actions tantamount to racism against the people under that government's rule, or is it not? Phrase the question around China or Israel, and you will get two different responses from many people.

Re: Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils Facebook's Chinese Employees

#30

Post by tossAfterUsing »

hangonhn wrote: post #20
thorwasdfasdf wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In order to understand why this conflation is occurring, you need to understand chinese culture. Chinese culture is very different in some fundamental ways that's hard for western countries to understand. First of all, the people in China are trained from a very early age to think of themselves as indistinguishable from their country and their government. There literally is no concept of self in China. People are tau…

Come on. That's patently not true. Seriously. I'm born Chinese and my family is Chinese. We were never "trained". I'm highly critical of the Chinese government (though I left fairly young) as are some members of my family. Some of them were born and raised there. Come on. Stop it with the stereotypes. People are complicated and have multitudes. "People are tauhgt to think of themselves as completely the same as their…

> (though I left fairly young)

how is it reasonable to take your anecdote as a decent reference point for somebody who has grown up in china, speaking mandarin, and learning about the world through CCP-funded public schooling?

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