Soviet version of the Space Shuttle • Hacker News Board

Re: Soviet version of the Space Shuttle

#21

Post by marbu » Thu, Jan 27, 2011, 9:04 PM UTC

burgerbrain wrote: post #7

thingie wrote: post #4

One interesting difference from the American program that had always intrigued me is that Buran was carried horizontally on a heavy launch pad with gear to erect the whole unit on the launch site, moving on pretty much ordinary railway tracks, hauled by off-the-shell diesel locomotives, while the Shuttle has to be moved in vertical position, very carefully and slowly, on a very special vehicle, that cannot be done in…

The Buran was also capable of landing entirely by itself, something I don't believe the shuttle can do even now.

I remember reading about this issue in chapter dedicated the Challager disaster in 'What Do You Care What Other People Think? '. Even in the begining of the shuttle program, the landing was controlled by computer with exception of two things: astronauts had to load the tape with landing instructions into the computer (there was several tapes for various scenarios) and lower the landing gear before touching the ground.

Re: Soviet version of the Space Shuttle

#22

Post by Luc » Thu, Jan 27, 2011, 9:24 PM UTC

pvg wrote: post #18

Luc wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the Soviets copied this with no more than a shrug of the shoulders? That's kind of hard to believe. Those engineers were just as good, if not better, than the ones in the west... Any rocket needs roll, pitch and yaw to get into the right orbit, or to reduce stress along a certain axis, or to orient comms antennas towards the ground. Saturn V did this too.

That specific thing does sound a little urban-legendy but there's no shortage of known cases of precise copying of technical details of some design, especially in early iterations or when the copiers didn't yet fully understand what they were copying. The aspect of this I find more surprising is that the Soviet space program went so far in emulating the entire idea of a reusable space plane, well after it must have b…

They started development in 1974, so only a few years after work on the Space Shuttle started. I'm not sure at what point it became clear that the Shuttle was not living up to expectations, but anyway Buran's development didn't exactly go smoothly either.

This is a better article than Wikipedia's: http://www.astronautix.com/craft/buran.htm

Re: Soviet version of the Space Shuttle

#23

Post by pavel_lishin » Thu, Jan 27, 2011, 9:43 PM UTC

burgerbrain wrote: post #17

pavel_lishin wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what you mean, can you elaborate? Do you mean that Buran can land without computer assistance?

I mean that the Buran could (and did) land without human assistance. It basically did what the air-forces new toy did earlier this year, but back in 1988.

You mean the pilots could jettison themselves into space, and the thing would auto-land? Or that they didn't need any support ground-side to set it down?

Re: Soviet version of the Space Shuttle

#24

Post by burgerbrain » Thu, Jan 27, 2011, 10:18 PM UTC

pavel_lishin wrote: post #23

burgerbrain wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean that the Buran could (and did) land without human assistance. It basically did what the air-forces new toy did earlier this year, but back in 1988.

You mean the pilots could jettison themselves into space, and the thing would auto-land? Or that they didn't need any support ground-side to set it down?

The Buran's single launch was completely unmanned, as in, there were no people in it. Supposedly the software for the UI inside the craft wasn't even installed or operational. The craft landed itself, NASA shuttle style, on a runway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buran_%28spacecraft%29#Flight_i...

Re: Soviet version of the Space Shuttle

#25

Post by burgerbrain » Thu, Jan 27, 2011, 10:23 PM UTC

rriepe wrote: post #13

burgerbrain wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Buran was also capable of landing entirely by itself, something I don't believe the shuttle can do even now.

The shuttle always lands by itself. Looks like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R2dCWZ92ew If you've seen the shuttle on the back of a 747, that's just for transport, not landing.

I mean "it lands itself", as opposed to "a human pilot participates in the landing". And not only did it land itself, it was apparently pretty damned good at it too.

Both crafts land on runways, of course I don't think it somehow lands on the back of a 747...

Re: Soviet version of the Space Shuttle

#26

Post by georgecmu » Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 1:12 AM UTC

pavel_lishin wrote: post #23

burgerbrain wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean that the Buran could (and did) land without human assistance. It basically did what the air-forces new toy did earlier this year, but back in 1988.

You mean the pilots could jettison themselves into space, and the thing would auto-land? Or that they didn't need any support ground-side to set it down?

He means that it didn't need pilots. The one time it was launched into orbit and landed, it was completely automatic.

Re: Soviet version of the Space Shuttle

#27

Post by adlep » Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 6:28 AM UTC

From the space/engineering/scientific point of view the cold war period was actually quite beneficial to both Soviet Union and the United States. Now, the budget of both US and Russian space programs is like a shadow of its former self. These days some folks in the US are shelling millions of dollars to build a wooden replica of Noahs Ark in Kentucky.... http://arkencounter.com/ I want my cold war back!

Re: Soviet version of the Space Shuttle

#28

Post by Shengster » Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 10:08 AM UTC

adlep wrote: post #27

From the space/engineering/scientific point of view the cold war period was actually quite beneficial to both Soviet Union and the United States. Now, the budget of both US and Russian space programs is like a shadow of its former self. These days some folks in the US are shelling millions of dollars to build a wooden replica of Noahs Ark in Kentucky.... http://arkencounter.com/ I want my cold war back!

I like how the organization behind this wants people to "donate" for their cause, while the ark itself will be owned by a private corporation.

Nice swindle eh?

If the project doesn't work out, they keep the cash donations, if the project works out, they charge people to see it.

Re: Soviet version of the Space Shuttle

#29

Post by smackfu » Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 3:45 PM UTC

smackfu wrote: post #14

thingie wrote: post #4

One interesting difference from the American program that had always intrigued me is that Buran was carried horizontally on a heavy launch pad with gear to erect the whole unit on the launch site, moving on pretty much ordinary railway tracks, hauled by off-the-shell diesel locomotives, while the Shuttle has to be moved in vertical position, very carefully and slowly, on a very special vehicle, that cannot be done in…

OTOH, the "very special vehicle" already existed from the Apollo program so it was pretty practical to reuse it. There is actually a lot of history from the Apollo program on why they chose to use what they did. Trains and barges were considered as well as the crawler they ended up using. Remember that Cape Canaveral is on a marsh, and that they had to make a turn between the VAB and the launch pads.

Here is the documentation I was thinking of:

Choosing a method:

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-4204/ch6-3.html http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-4204/ch6-4.html

Details on the crawler:

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-4204/ch13-1.htm...