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It can make more sense to build new renewable capacity than run old coal plants

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Re: It can make more sense to build new renewable capacity than run old coal plants

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the dream team would be a combination of renewable and nuclear.

No it wouldn't, because nuclear isn't reactive enough to produce energy to match the extreme afternoon demand curves when solar capacity drops and demand jumps. To account for those rapid jumps in non-renewable demand, you need an energy source that can ramp up really fast on short notice, like hydrocarbon fire.

> like hydrocarbon fire.

Or batteries and other storage methods. It looks like battery solutions could get cheap enough in the next 10-20 years to smooth things out and take care of storage for a few hours (see for instance http://news.mit.edu/2018/metal-mesh-membrane-rechargeable-ba... .. Donald Sadoway has some good talks on YouTube)

But yeah, for days that happen to have less wind/solar, I think the best thing is just keep gas power plants around. The CO2 impact for that will be minimal, the power plants are already built, and over time you could replace the fuel with synthetic gas made from renewables, which would basically be another energy storage mechanism. Cheaper renewable gas is something we need to make the world sustainable anyway.

The only unsolved problem is seasonal variations in colder climates. But those areas could import more trash and burn it (for both electricity and heat), like Sweden does. Norway has a ton of hydroelectric power, and is building more HVDC power lines to other areas of Northern Europe which will help with that area. Not sure what the solution for North America is though. But it's not nuclear. Having a nuclear power plant idle for half a year is the exact opposite of what you want. The plant is expensive and the fuel is cheap - if you build it you want it to run 24/7.

Re: It can make more sense to build new renewable capacity than run old coal plants

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it wouldn't, because nuclear isn't reactive enough to produce energy to match the extreme afternoon demand curves when solar capacity drops and demand jumps. To account for those rapid jumps in non-renewable demand, you need an energy source that can ramp up really fast on short notice, like hydrocarbon fire.

Or deploy storage to make the curve smoother

You mean I can “bank” A/C in the form of ice???

Re: It can make more sense to build new renewable capacity than run old coal plants

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the dream team would be a combination of renewable and nuclear.

No it wouldn't, because nuclear isn't reactive enough to produce energy to match the extreme afternoon demand curves when solar capacity drops and demand jumps. To account for those rapid jumps in non-renewable demand, you need an energy source that can ramp up really fast on short notice, like hydrocarbon fire.

> the extreme afternoon demand curves when solar capacity drops and demand jumps

Does the hourly schedule variate day by day or can it be predicted?

If you can predict when and how much power you will need to produce then it can be ramped up slowly, I assume.

Re: It can make more sense to build new renewable capacity than run old coal plants

#24
post #12

Oh, can I not wait to ditch Ontario's Power for my own Renewables. The costs are reaching extremes now. We have some of the most expensive power in the world.

Ontario power is mostly from renewable sources already, but yes it is highly mismanaged. You can see the hourly Ontario energy use by source here: http://www.ieso.ca/power-data One of the worst inefficiencies of the Ontario grid is that we run an abundance of energy during parts of the day, during which we dump electricity to the US at extremely cheap rates. If that electricity were offered at the same rate to Ontari…

Totally. Why am I burning natural gas when I could have an rPi connected space heater dial it up?

Or push my freezer into deep-freeze mode.

Or my water heater tank into super-heat mode? I already have a thermostatic valve anyway.

Or have my dishwasher start whenever it wants between midnight and 6AM? All I can do is start now or in 4 hours, meanwhile these might be terrible times.

Re: It can make more sense to build new renewable capacity than run old coal plants

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it wouldn't, because nuclear isn't reactive enough to produce energy to match the extreme afternoon demand curves when solar capacity drops and demand jumps. To account for those rapid jumps in non-renewable demand, you need an energy source that can ramp up really fast on short notice, like hydrocarbon fire.

Source for the latency of nuclear concerning spikes in electrical demand? > 70% of France electricity is made from nuclear and they don't seem to have the issue you claim.

Half of that 30% are natural gas peaker plants.

Re: It can make more sense to build new renewable capacity than run old coal plants

#26
I learned from Professor Vaclav Smil that while Wind and Solar are practical energy solutions in the United States population ~340mil. It is not practical in all regions in more populous countries such as China (population ~1.4 Billion).

There are large regions in the country where Solar is not a good solution due to fog. And Wind is not a good solution due to lack of wind.

We have a global climate system. As is such if the goal is to reduce carbon emissions in some areas Nuclear power is the most effective method to achieve this goal. Furthermore, moving China to non-carbon energy sources would have the largest impact globally. They use ~ 22 GigaWatts of electricity per year. Which is 3.6 times as much as the US which is the 2ed largest consumer of energy by country.

http://vaclavsmil.com/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_electrici...

Re: It can make more sense to build new renewable capacity than run old coal plants

#27
post #12

Oh, can I not wait to ditch Ontario's Power for my own Renewables. The costs are reaching extremes now. We have some of the most expensive power in the world.

Ontario power is mostly from renewable sources already, but yes it is highly mismanaged. You can see the hourly Ontario energy use by source here: http://www.ieso.ca/power-data One of the worst inefficiencies of the Ontario grid is that we run an abundance of energy during parts of the day, during which we dump electricity to the US at extremely cheap rates. If that electricity were offered at the same rate to Ontari…

Is there a minimum rate at which they produce hydro power? That seems like a great option to spin down hydro power during those parts of the day, store the water, and then spin the hydro plants back up at peak load.

Re: It can make more sense to build new renewable capacity than run old coal plants

#28
I don't understand the hype around wind and solar. Or rather I don't see how these technologies can ever be anything more than a minor player in the energy market:

These technologies are extremely sensitive to weather conditions which means that other, more stable sources must exist and have "stand by" production cap to produce all the energy these tech won't under bad conditions. If so, what's the point? (I mean in the grand, climate crisis, scheme of things) what am I missing?

Even in "green" countries, most of the green energy comes from bio fuel which is just burning young "soon to be coal".

Re: It can make more sense to build new renewable capacity than run old coal plants

#29
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it wouldn't, because nuclear isn't reactive enough to produce energy to match the extreme afternoon demand curves when solar capacity drops and demand jumps. To account for those rapid jumps in non-renewable demand, you need an energy source that can ramp up really fast on short notice, like hydrocarbon fire.

So make a big enough nuclear plant for those peaks.

AFAIK it's about Xenon poisoning.

Re: It can make more sense to build new renewable capacity than run old coal plants

#30
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it wouldn't, because nuclear isn't reactive enough to produce energy to match the extreme afternoon demand curves when solar capacity drops and demand jumps. To account for those rapid jumps in non-renewable demand, you need an energy source that can ramp up really fast on short notice, like hydrocarbon fire.

So make a big enough nuclear plant for those peaks.

Too expensive. Bigger capacity means bigger costs up front and runtime.
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