Uber facing ban in Geneva • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber facing ban in Geneva

#21

Post by jcims » Sat, Nov 02, 2019, 11:24 AM UTC

notimetorelax wrote: post #17

jcims wrote: post #2

What if Uber capped driver hours to something low like 2-3 per day to eliminate co-dependence?

This makes absolutely no difference. Rules for self-employment are much stricter: https://www.kmu.admin.ch/kmu/en/home/concrete-know-how/setti... Even if you hire a cleaner for a few hours a week, it’s still considered employment: https://lenews.ch/2016/08/17/7-step-guide-to-hiring-a-cleane...

Uber's position is that they are a marketplace and that it's the rider hiring the driver for services.

https://marketplace.uber.com/

Now if Switzerland has regulations around marketplace access (e.g. do farmers have to evidence eligibility for self-employment before renting a booth at a town pavilion for market day?) then Uber would clearly be obligated to comply.

However, the eligibility requirements for self-employment for the driver would appear to be fully the driver's responsibility to meet. And the relationship between employer and employee in the link you provided about cleaners would seem to actually be between the driver and the fare that hired them for the trip.

Now people can call bullshit on the whole marketplace idea, and it's much easier to make the case when drivers are basically doing it full time...hence my suggestion that they limit 'marketplace access' to avoid that situation.

I don't know. All of the hand-wringing about driver treatment just doesn't make sense to me. I guess if we assume drivers are too stupid to make their own financial decisions it makes sense, but otherwise i don't get it.

Re: Uber facing ban in Geneva

#22

Post by notimetorelax » Sat, Nov 02, 2019, 1:23 PM UTC

jcims wrote: post #21

notimetorelax wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes absolutely no difference. Rules for self-employment are much stricter: https://www.kmu.admin.ch/kmu/en/home/concrete-know-how/setti... Even if you hire a cleaner for a few hours a week, it’s still considered employment: https://lenews.ch/2016/08/17/7-step-guide-to-hiring-a-cleane...

Uber's position is that they are a marketplace and that it's the rider hiring the driver for services. https://marketplace.uber.com/ Now if Switzerland has regulations around marketplace access (e.g. do farmers have to evidence eligibility for self-employment before renting a booth at a town pavilion for market day?) then Uber would clearly be obligated to comply. However, the eligibility requirements for self-employ…

The matter is very simple, if we abstract ourselves away from any platform or market discussion.

Someone has to be on the hook to pay social deductions, unemployment insurance, etc. If Uber requires all its drivers to be companies, then these companies would be responsible. Since Uber allowed private persons, then they have to cover it.

I think the part where the riders have to pay the deductions is interesting. It would be the case if I hired someone directly, but in this case I interact with Uber who offers the service.

This is the default expectation in Switzerland, direct hire - pay the social deductions, hiring a company - pay only what’s on the bill.

Swiss law protects the employees, if social deductions are not paid it’s the employer’s fault.

Re: Uber facing ban in Geneva

#23

Post by jcims » Sat, Nov 02, 2019, 3:57 PM UTC

notimetorelax wrote: post #22

jcims wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uber's position is that they are a marketplace and that it's the rider hiring the driver for services. https://marketplace.uber.com/ Now if Switzerland has regulations around marketplace access (e.g. do farmers have to evidence eligibility for self-employment before renting a booth at a town pavilion for market day?) then Uber would clearly be obligated to comply. However, the eligibility requirements for self-employ…

The matter is very simple, if we abstract ourselves away from any platform or market discussion. Someone has to be on the hook to pay social deductions, unemployment insurance, etc. If Uber requires all its drivers to be companies, then these companies would be responsible. Since Uber allowed private persons, then they have to cover it. I think the part where the riders have to pay the deductions is interesting. It w…

OK that’s a good way way of breaking it down. Definitely seems like Uber was sloppy at the least. Guess that’s why we’re chatting. :)