Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools • Hacker News Board

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#21

Post by kolbe » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:43 PM UTC

_bxg1 wrote: post #20

kolbe wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be extreme affirmative action, and would undermine myriad efficiencies built into the higher educational system. Schools like Michigan would have some students who are totally illiterate with SAT scores hovering around 800, and some students who've already done upper-division math courses in high school. Intelligent people could no longer be grouped together to help drive each other, and schools like Harva…

Private schools could be outlawed. Rich parents who want their children to go to better schools can donate to their city's public education budget. Most of the social problems stemming from capitalism center around the fact that having money gives you and yours disproportionate opportunities for improving your socioeconomic position even more , ad infinitum. Cut out that circular effect wherever possible, and you app…

So, just play whack-a-mole everything you don't like by making a law? As if just telling the government to outlaw something makes it go away with no other effects. Go ahead and apply some systems thinking to what the unintended consequences of that law would be. If you're really interested in solving problems, you cannot be that lazy and narrow minded.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#22

Post by GuB-42 » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:48 PM UTC

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #3

Probably we should just add class and/or socioeconomic status to the Title VII list and mandate that colleges add it in the form of affirmative action. We can talk around the problem & treat symptoms all we want but fundamentally the Ivy League's purpose is to take the children of the rich and give them the meritocratic legitimation that our society currently requires of its elites. Allowing a small amount of poor ki…

It may feel unfair but the Ivy League system is actually good.

There are essentially two kinds of people who enter elite schools: rich kids and very gifted kids.

Rich kids don't really need that degree, they already have a guaranteed position thanks to their network and family. They are, however, able to support the school financially and use their network to provide scholarships and good job opportunities to more modest fellow students.

You have a 3 part system supporting each other:

- The school offers high quality education, recognition, and a suitable environment.

- Rich kids and their families support the school financially and offer career opportunities.

- Gifted kids provide the raw talent needed for the important positions these schools open.

Removing rich kids from the equation won't do any good. They are not parasites, they bring more to the system than they cost. And it's not like they are morons, they don't get a free pass just because they are rich, they still need to pass the tests.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#23

Post by _bxg1 » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:54 PM UTC

kolbe wrote: post #21

_bxg1 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private schools could be outlawed. Rich parents who want their children to go to better schools can donate to their city's public education budget. Most of the social problems stemming from capitalism center around the fact that having money gives you and yours disproportionate opportunities for improving your socioeconomic position even more , ad infinitum. Cut out that circular effect wherever possible, and you app…

So, just play whack-a-mole everything you don't like by making a law? As if just telling the government to outlaw something makes it go away with no other effects. Go ahead and apply some systems thinking to what the unintended consequences of that law would be. If you're really interested in solving problems, you cannot be that lazy and narrow minded.

There's no need to be rude.

History has shown that the making of laws is the only way to curtail the negative side-effects of the free market.

I am not a congressman or even a lawyer, so no, as any sane person could infer, I am not proposing that "Private schools are illegal" be written on a piece of paper and submitted to the legislature as a new bill.

But I am proposing that weakening the circular mechanisms by which the powerful increase their own power could be a better - indeed, less "lazy and narrow-minded" - strategy for decreasing economic inequality than some other strategies that people propose and even enact.

The only two purposes I can think of for having private grade-schools are a) allowing the rich to isolate themselves from the public school system, and b) religious schools. And to be honest - as someone who went to a religious elementary school and learned in my "science class" that evolution is fake and dinosaurs walked alongside humans - the latter probably shouldn't be allowed either.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#24

Post by pvarangot » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 10:58 PM UTC

torranceyang wrote: post #12

I really enjoyed this article. I haven't read Anthony Jack's book on the issue yet (I'll add it to my list!), but the framing of privileged poor and double disadvantaged was a new way for me to think about education inequality. The transition into an "elite" college, even as a middle class Asian-American male, was incredibly difficult on me mentally. My background in public school system in North Carolina (not in the…

Another biased way of seeing your professors is usually as indisputable authority figures. It's even harder to not fall for that as a lot of high performing academics paint themselves like that when teaching, which is ironic given that they usually underperform at the latter because of how they stand in that position of authority.

I went to an okish school but my house and school were very authoritarian environments that constrained creativity. It took me a while to overcome that bias.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#25

Post by shantly » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 11:01 PM UTC

Glyptodon wrote: post #14

Some of these issues extend beyond such narrow groups. Office hours as a concept are easily one of the weirdest and most confusing things ever because they simultaneously encompass at least two entirely different disharmonious concepts. Are they (a) time set aside so those who need significant help can get it without disrupting class, or (b) time aside so students can chat and schmooze with their professors? The real…

> And this can be very confusing, unless you come from a self-centered elite worldview where (a) and (b) aren't highly differentiated.

I'm a white dude from a family that was totally fine financially (though more due to good money management than sky-high income) so I can't and wouldn't claim any disadvantage on those fronts, obviously, but socially there's just so much my upbringing didn't prepare me for in the world, or didn't expose me to. We 100% did not run in privileged social circles, even a bit. Rural poor, mostly, in my extended family and such. It's been wild learning how differently those with other social backgrounds see the world, and what's considered acceptable behavior.

It would never, ever have occurred to me to attend office hours just to get to know my professors. Woulda seemed pretty dickish, actually. But it's normal and expected and confers all kinds of advantages. Go figure.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#26

Post by Bostonian » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 11:02 PM UTC

_bxg1 wrote: post #20

kolbe wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be extreme affirmative action, and would undermine myriad efficiencies built into the higher educational system. Schools like Michigan would have some students who are totally illiterate with SAT scores hovering around 800, and some students who've already done upper-division math courses in high school. Intelligent people could no longer be grouped together to help drive each other, and schools like Harva…

Private schools could be outlawed. Rich parents who want their children to go to better schools can donate to their city's public education budget. Most of the social problems stemming from capitalism center around the fact that having money gives you and yours disproportionate opportunities for improving your socioeconomic position even more , ad infinitum. Cut out that circular effect wherever possible, and you app…

"Private schools could be outlawed. Rich parents who want their children to go to better schools can donate to their city's public education budget."

This awful idea makes sense only if you think the state owns people's children. As a parent it is my right, within certain bounds, to decide how my children are educated.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#27

Post by JumpCrisscross » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 11:03 PM UTC

chongli wrote: post #17

mjevans wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most fair solution would probably look a lot like what Harry Potter got at Hogwarts. A student dorm (housing), medical care, and proper meals; all provided by the educational institution (which as a whole was in competition with other institutions). In the HP universe that happened to be paid for by the family estate; in our own reality properly caring for and ensuring that everyone is raised to be an outstanding…

The only reason Harry got into Hogwarts was because he was born a wizard (likely inherited from his parents). Based on the way he was treated by his peers, I’d argue that he was one of the most privileged students at the school, apart from Malfoy. The only real oppression Harry experienced was the abuse he suffered at the hands of his uncle and aunt. Plenty of rich kids suffer this sort of abuse from relatives. That…

> Based on the way he was treated by his peers, I’d argue that he was one of the most privileged students at the school

Wasn’t he also phenomenally rich in wizard money?

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#28

Post by friendlybus » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 11:04 PM UTC

Glyptodon wrote: post #14

Some of these issues extend beyond such narrow groups. Office hours as a concept are easily one of the weirdest and most confusing things ever because they simultaneously encompass at least two entirely different disharmonious concepts. Are they (a) time set aside so those who need significant help can get it without disrupting class, or (b) time aside so students can chat and schmooze with their professors? The real…

>The whole concept of "discussing your grade" is another overlap. People from a certain strata do this constantly and it's a perfect example of something bluring (a) and (b).

I've seen this happen with working class people in high universities. It's not a class issue, you can learn it from others.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#29

Post by _bxg1 » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 11:06 PM UTC

Bostonian wrote: post #26

_bxg1 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private schools could be outlawed. Rich parents who want their children to go to better schools can donate to their city's public education budget. Most of the social problems stemming from capitalism center around the fact that having money gives you and yours disproportionate opportunities for improving your socioeconomic position even more , ad infinitum. Cut out that circular effect wherever possible, and you app…

"Private schools could be outlawed. Rich parents who want their children to go to better schools can donate to their city's public education budget." This awful idea makes sense only if you think the state owns people's children. As a parent it is my right, within certain bounds, to decide how my children are educated.

The state already imposes certain basic aspects of welfare on children, from vaccines to the fact that they have to go to school at all. In fact (I believe) private schools already have to be certified by the state. So it wouldn't be an enormous leap to simply stop certifying private organizations that want to play the role of state-certified educational institution.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#30

Post by empath75 » Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 11:09 PM UTC

GuB-42 wrote: post #22

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #3

Probably we should just add class and/or socioeconomic status to the Title VII list and mandate that colleges add it in the form of affirmative action. We can talk around the problem & treat symptoms all we want but fundamentally the Ivy League's purpose is to take the children of the rich and give them the meritocratic legitimation that our society currently requires of its elites. Allowing a small amount of poor ki…

It may feel unfair but the Ivy League system is actually good. There are essentially two kinds of people who enter elite schools: rich kids and very gifted kids. Rich kids don't really need that degree, they already have a guaranteed position thanks to their network and family. They are, however, able to support the school financially and use their network to provide scholarships and good job opportunities to more mo…

Well they’re not parasites to that particular institution, at least economically, but that says nothing about their value to society as a whole.