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Zen and the Art of Software Maintenance

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Re: Zen and the Art of Software Maintenance

#21

Post by defined »

cm2012 wrote: post #19
whalesalad wrote: post #10

Everyone in our circle of nerds recommends this book and all three times I tried to read it I found it absolutely unbearable. It collects dust in a donation box that I haven’t mustered the strength to carry down to goodwill. Does anyone else share this sentiment? Did you ever crack the reason why so many love it? Obviously taste is subjective and we are not all supposed to like everything but I’ve always felt like th…

I wholeheartedly agree. "Pretentious" is the word I would use for it. "Insincere" is another.

Sorry you feel that way. I feel it’s a work of genius, the regular structure of which reflects Pirsig’s obsession with quality.

Re: Zen and the Art of Software Maintenance

#22

Post by defined »

lidHanteyk wrote: post #6

In Pirsig's second book, Lila, he returns to examine what the romantic-classical synthesis looks like from another perspective: the moral perspective. He imagines the moral qualities of the world. What are the moral qualities of a motorcycle? How ought a motorcycle to behave? Pirsig proposes a thought experiement, the "chemistry teacher" experiment, where a chemistry teacher is left on a beach to rot. Through this ex…

Sadly, I did not enjoy _Lila_ nearly as much as ZATAOMM. It seemed to be less organized or something.

Re: Zen and the Art of Software Maintenance

#23

Post by indigochill »

lazyasciiart wrote: post #15
LostInTheWoods2 wrote: post #13

At the end of day, the customer does not care if, for example, you implemented their project as giant if-then conditional; as long as it works. It is the craftsman in us that makes us write quality code; it is something we ultimately do for ourselves.

At the end of the day, it's a lot less likely to work if you write a giant if condition. So yes, the customer won't care why it works or doesn't - but quality code has impacts they can feel.

My experience has also been it's a not-entirely-Zen experience extending giant if conditions even if they technically work fine for the current use case.

Re: Zen and the Art of Software Maintenance

#24

Post by wsinks »

lincolnq wrote: post #14
whalesalad wrote: post #10

Everyone in our circle of nerds recommends this book and all three times I tried to read it I found it absolutely unbearable. It collects dust in a donation box that I haven’t mustered the strength to carry down to goodwill. Does anyone else share this sentiment? Did you ever crack the reason why so many love it? Obviously taste is subjective and we are not all supposed to like everything but I’ve always felt like th…

I only liked it a little bit but was recommended by someone for whom it was their favorite book ever. I only really took away one thing from the book (some deeper level of understanding of what is meant by "quality", in the sense of craftsmanship). I value that understanding and am happy I read the book, but I don't use that wisdom very often in my life. Maybe you're reading it in a way which expects it to have a plo…

I took away the parable about the broken motorcycle flummoxed by a screw.

As a kid, I didn't want to take things apart. It's breaking the rules, usually. But when something is already broken, then the rules change, and this book gave me language for that.

Re: Zen and the Art of Software Maintenance

#25

Post by guelo »

whalesalad wrote: post #10

Everyone in our circle of nerds recommends this book and all three times I tried to read it I found it absolutely unbearable. It collects dust in a donation box that I haven’t mustered the strength to carry down to goodwill. Does anyone else share this sentiment? Did you ever crack the reason why so many love it? Obviously taste is subjective and we are not all supposed to like everything but I’ve always felt like th…

Weird. The first time I read it I happened to come across it while browsing at a bookstore and I was unable to put it down. I sat down in the bookstore and read it in one sitting over a few hours.

Re: Zen and the Art of Software Maintenance

#26

Post by whalesalad »

defined wrote: post #21
cm2012 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wholeheartedly agree. "Pretentious" is the word I would use for it. "Insincere" is another.

Sorry you feel that way. I feel it’s a work of genius, the regular structure of which reflects Pirsig’s obsession with quality.

You keep arguing that the author is obsessed with quality, and therefore the book is imbued with an abundance of it. Quality is totally subjective. Taking four years to write a book and obsessing over quality is really not a badge of honor in and of itself.

Re: Zen and the Art of Software Maintenance

#27

Post by daseiner1 »

guelo wrote: post #25
whalesalad wrote: post #10

Everyone in our circle of nerds recommends this book and all three times I tried to read it I found it absolutely unbearable. It collects dust in a donation box that I haven’t mustered the strength to carry down to goodwill. Does anyone else share this sentiment? Did you ever crack the reason why so many love it? Obviously taste is subjective and we are not all supposed to like everything but I’ve always felt like th…

Weird. The first time I read it I happened to come across it while browsing at a bookstore and I was unable to put it down. I sat down in the bookstore and read it in one sitting over a few hours.

sir, this is a bookstore, not a library

Re: Zen and the Art of Software Maintenance

#28

Post by varikin »

cm2012 wrote: post #19
whalesalad wrote: post #10

Everyone in our circle of nerds recommends this book and all three times I tried to read it I found it absolutely unbearable. It collects dust in a donation box that I haven’t mustered the strength to carry down to goodwill. Does anyone else share this sentiment? Did you ever crack the reason why so many love it? Obviously taste is subjective and we are not all supposed to like everything but I’ve always felt like th…

I wholeheartedly agree. "Pretentious" is the word I would use for it. "Insincere" is another.

I also dislike the book. As someone who loves motorcycles and fixing an old Honda myself, it is something I want to love. To me, the protagonist is trying to show how smart he is after reading some intro to philosophy book.

Re: Zen and the Art of Software Maintenance

#29

Post by ep103 »

whalesalad wrote: post #26
defined wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry you feel that way. I feel it’s a work of genius, the regular structure of which reflects Pirsig’s obsession with quality.

You keep arguing that the author is obsessed with quality, and therefore the book is imbued with an abundance of it. Quality is totally subjective. Taking four years to write a book and obsessing over quality is really not a badge of honor in and of itself.

You misunderstand defined's post. He's not saying that ZATAOMM is a high quality book, because the author was obsessed with ensuring that his book was of high quality. If that was the case, you would be (mostly) right, as there is a subjective aspect to determining quality.

No.

ZATAOMM is a book about the philosophical concept of "Quality". What is "Quality"? What do we mean when we say the word "quality"? How does that understanding, or lack thereof, impact our life, sciences, and society?

That is what defined meant. Read with that understanding, defined's statement reads:

I believe ZATAOMM is a work of genius, that was only possible due to the author's obsession with learning everything he could about the topic of the book before writing it.

Re: Zen and the Art of Software Maintenance

#30

Post by ppseafield »

whalesalad wrote: post #10

Everyone in our circle of nerds recommends this book and all three times I tried to read it I found it absolutely unbearable. It collects dust in a donation box that I haven’t mustered the strength to carry down to goodwill. Does anyone else share this sentiment? Did you ever crack the reason why so many love it? Obviously taste is subjective and we are not all supposed to like everything but I’ve always felt like th…

I thought it was OK, but I felt it was more a critique of philosophy as shoe-horned into a purely analytical method than something that would appeal to most folks.

From Wikipedia [0]:

> The narrator examines the modern pursuit of "Pure Truths", claiming it derives from the work of early Greek philosophers who were establishing the concept of truth in opposition to the force of "The Good". He argues that although rational thought may find a truth (or The Truth) it may never be fully and universally applicable to every individual's experience. Therefore, what is needed is an approach to life that is more inclusive and has a wider range of application. He makes a case that originally the Greeks did not distinguish between "Quality" and "Truth"—they were one and the same, arete—and that the divorce was, in fact, artificial (though needed at the time) and is now a source of much frustration and unhappiness in the world, particularly overall dissatisfaction with modern life.

Socrates in Plato's writing focused acutely on finding these capital-T Truths that were universal. The book argues that focusing exclusively on this can't fully inform you on how to live a good life.

Note that arete means both quality and skill. To simplify a bit a person's character was believed to be built on virtue, and someone who was a "skillful" (arete) at being a person was a virtuous person.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and_the_Art_of_Motorcycle_...

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