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Python at Scale: Strict Modules

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Re: Python at Scale: Strict Modules

#21

Post by miki123211 »

This is yet another example of the divide between wizarding and engineering[1]. When you're a small startup, what matters is the expressiveness of your language, and the ability do do a lot of things very very quickly. Type safety, performance, readability, those things don't matter. You're just a bunch of engineers who know the whole codebase inside out, you're pretty certain of what you're doing. In short, you're wizarding. If you grow big enough, this approach slows you down greatly, and you need to switch to engineering. You sacrifice some speed for making the codebase more understandable to a larger group of people, you can no longer assume everyone knows all the code, you write unit tests, need types and dislike metaprogramming because of the confusion it creates. This is why languages like Python, Ruby, Lisp or Smalltalk are amazing for small startups, but Java is what enterprises use. They're different ends of the wizarding/engineering spectrum. I wish there was a language that let you move gradually from one end to the other, exactly when you need to.

[1] https://www.tedinski.com/2018/03/20/wizarding-vs-engineering...

Re: Python at Scale: Strict Modules

#22

Post by ben_jones »

miki123211 wrote: post #21

This is yet another example of the divide between wizarding and engineering[1]. When you're a small startup, what matters is the expressiveness of your language, and the ability do do a lot of things very very quickly. Type safety, performance, readability, those things don't matter. You're just a bunch of engineers who know the whole codebase inside out, you're pretty certain of what you're doing. In short, you're w…

What you call Wizarding I call "ordinary Software Development". A software developer spends ~70% of their time writing features and the rest mixed between organization/planning/roadmapping etc. A software engineer spends ~30% of their time writing features and the rest of it managing technical debt and making long-term investments towards better features and processes.

Too many companies need devs but have engineers, or they need engineers but only have devs :/

Re: Python at Scale: Strict Modules

#23

Post by TylerE »

miki123211 wrote: post #21

This is yet another example of the divide between wizarding and engineering[1]. When you're a small startup, what matters is the expressiveness of your language, and the ability do do a lot of things very very quickly. Type safety, performance, readability, those things don't matter. You're just a bunch of engineers who know the whole codebase inside out, you're pretty certain of what you're doing. In short, you're w…

Who is starting large-scale new projects in Java in 2019?

Re: Python at Scale: Strict Modules

#24

Post by heavenlyblue »

nerdponx wrote: post #17
allan_s wrote: post #11

> This means that just by importing this module, we're mutating global state somewhere else. Yes, this ! That's why I hate Django and some flask app the most for, the fact that by importing a module, you're implicitly creating a database connection, and a lot of other magic stuff, which mean that now I can't import a constant defined in said module outside of `python manage.py` Also as said below in the article, sudd…

I much prefer frameworks/modules for which code is executed only once you invoke their "setup" function Django _does_ have a "setup" function. You can't import and use Django database connections outside of a running application without it. Flask also has a "run" method and does no i/o without it.

Every time I hear a comment alike parent's, it makes me think how many times a day I actually read a comment in the same fashion, but about something I actually know nothing about.

Re: Python at Scale: Strict Modules

#25

Post by victor106 »

TylerE wrote: post #23
miki123211 wrote: post #21

This is yet another example of the divide between wizarding and engineering[1]. When you're a small startup, what matters is the expressiveness of your language, and the ability do do a lot of things very very quickly. Type safety, performance, readability, those things don't matter. You're just a bunch of engineers who know the whole codebase inside out, you're pretty certain of what you're doing. In short, you're w…

Who is starting large-scale new projects in Java in 2019?

One of my clients handles 90% of all the pbm routing in the US, which is millions of transactions per second. They started to completely modernize the application on java... primarily Spring Boot and Apache Geode. After some optimizations they are very happy with the performance and expressiveness of modern java.

Re: Python at Scale: Strict Modules

#26

Post by timothycrosley »

TylerE wrote: post #19
timothycrosley wrote: post #18

More and more I want someone to create a new language that amounts to a strict subset of Python, with mypy built-in, and is compilable into machine code. Python has by far my favorite syntax, community, and in my experience leads to the greatest productivity. There just happens to be a lot of overly dynamic features, that aren't even used by most, but used just enough to hold back optimization and structural improvem…

nim

I've been tracking nim, and would agree it's the most promising so far! I feel though that it's trying to be too flexible in many ways. Examples of this include allowing multiple different garbage collectors and encouraging heavy ast manipulation. I'm also afraid it is different enough to keep it from attracting a significant amount of developers from the Python community. Nonetheless, it's something I plan on using and contributing to, since it's the best option so far.

Re: Python at Scale: Strict Modules

#27

Post by carapace »

timothycrosley wrote: post #18

More and more I want someone to create a new language that amounts to a strict subset of Python, with mypy built-in, and is compilable into machine code. Python has by far my favorite syntax, community, and in my experience leads to the greatest productivity. There just happens to be a lot of overly dynamic features, that aren't even used by most, but used just enough to hold back optimization and structural improvem…

Cython? Nuitka?

Re: Python at Scale: Strict Modules

#29

Post by pjmlp »

TylerE wrote: post #23
miki123211 wrote: post #21

This is yet another example of the divide between wizarding and engineering[1]. When you're a small startup, what matters is the expressiveness of your language, and the ability do do a lot of things very very quickly. Type safety, performance, readability, those things don't matter. You're just a bunch of engineers who know the whole codebase inside out, you're pretty certain of what you're doing. In short, you're w…

Who is starting large-scale new projects in Java in 2019?

Plenty of companies free of magpie developers.

Re: Python at Scale: Strict Modules

#30

Post by scrollaway »

timothycrosley wrote: post #18

More and more I want someone to create a new language that amounts to a strict subset of Python, with mypy built-in, and is compilable into machine code. Python has by far my favorite syntax, community, and in my experience leads to the greatest productivity. There just happens to be a lot of overly dynamic features, that aren't even used by most, but used just enough to hold back optimization and structural improvem…

Python has some of my favourite syntax as well but I absolutely hate its annotations. TypeScript got typings right.

I think the killer language will be typescript with access to both the python and JavaScript ecosystems. We'll see what that looks like.

And of course if something changes the syntax, better anonymous functions will be the absolute first thing I would look for...

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