Turning Over: Why page turners matter • Hacker News Board

Re: Turning Over: Why page turners matter

#21

Post by JasonFruit » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 4:37 AM UTC

amelius wrote: post #14

kdmccormick wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside from the technical challenges of this, I think that it's not exactly in the spirit of classical performance, which often is as much about the incredible skill and attention-to-detail of the people on stage as it is about the sound of the music itself. So, I imagine many skilled pianists would still prefer a human page turner over such a device, even if it did exist and functioned perfectly.

But I think a fair question is: why are these performers even using sheet music? Imagine going to a pop concert and [insert favorite artist] was reading sheet music while dancing on stage. Shouldn't the music be in "muscle memory", even for classical performers? Wouldn't that open up more opportunities for contact between the performer and audience?

One difference is that Pink Floyd made their entire careers on about thirty-five songs, iirc. That's about one season's worth of one symphony orchestra's repertoire, and most performers perform with multiple ensembles to make a living. Does the wedding gig string quartet have their regular repertoire memorized? Probably. Does the orchestra have the premiere by a minor Midwestern composer memorized? No, and they never will.

Re: Turning Over: Why page turners matter

#22

Post by jleightcap » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 5:40 AM UTC

yellowapple wrote: post #15

amelius wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that some instruments have pedals too (e.g. the piano).

Right, but I can't think of very many situations where you're using both feet on a piano (in fact, I don't know if that's even mechanically possible). So that leaves at least one foot. Organists would have to figure out some other strategy, though, since they do use both feet frequently. Still, if there's a button to push somewhere on the organ, that'd be at least easier than flipping a physical page.

There are many examples where two pedals are used simultaneously. If I'm remembering correctly, there's even a moment in a Ligeti Etude where all three pedals are needed. Regardless, using an iPad for sheet music is already being a adopted by classical pianists minus the foot pedals, like Yuja Wang: https://youtu.be/ZbEtk1kdYx4

Re: Turning Over: Why page turners matter

#23

Post by jleightcap » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 5:45 AM UTC

amelius wrote: post #14

kdmccormick wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside from the technical challenges of this, I think that it's not exactly in the spirit of classical performance, which often is as much about the incredible skill and attention-to-detail of the people on stage as it is about the sound of the music itself. So, I imagine many skilled pianists would still prefer a human page turner over such a device, even if it did exist and functioned perfectly.

But I think a fair question is: why are these performers even using sheet music? Imagine going to a pop concert and [insert favorite artist] was reading sheet music while dancing on stage. Shouldn't the music be in "muscle memory", even for classical performers? Wouldn't that open up more opportunities for contact between the performer and audience?

That's an entirely fair question, and in a lot of piano auditions at least in my experience memorization is required. Most of the time, sheet music isn't helpful because it answers "what chord am I supposed to play next?" but more so as a roadmap for the structure of the piece. Take a look at the sheet music for the Stockhausen Klavierstucke mentioned in the article and you can see why this would be helpful.

Re: Turning Over: Why page turners matter

#24

Post by Doctor_Fegg » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 7:05 AM UTC

amelius wrote: post #14

kdmccormick wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside from the technical challenges of this, I think that it's not exactly in the spirit of classical performance, which often is as much about the incredible skill and attention-to-detail of the people on stage as it is about the sound of the music itself. So, I imagine many skilled pianists would still prefer a human page turner over such a device, even if it did exist and functioned perfectly.

But I think a fair question is: why are these performers even using sheet music? Imagine going to a pop concert and [insert favorite artist] was reading sheet music while dancing on stage. Shouldn't the music be in "muscle memory", even for classical performers? Wouldn't that open up more opportunities for contact between the performer and audience?

Organ rather than piano, but the repertoire for a month of cathedral services (assuming daily Evensong plus Sunday morning Eucharist) is vast, especially considering all the registrations (stop selections). Playing all that from memory is unrealistic.

Here’s a typical month at Worcester, and bear in mind it doesn’t include the voluntaries at the start and end of each service (though the start will sometimes be improvised, at least in part): http://www.worcestercathedral.co.uk/media/October_Scheme_201...

Re: Turning Over: Why page turners matter

#25

Post by Doctor_Fegg » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 7:07 AM UTC

pcc wrote: post #18

yellowapple wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but I can't think of very many situations where you're using both feet on a piano (in fact, I don't know if that's even mechanically possible). So that leaves at least one foot. Organists would have to figure out some other strategy, though, since they do use both feet frequently. Still, if there's a button to push somewhere on the organ, that'd be at least easier than flipping a physical page.

Yes it's very much mechanically possible to use 2 pedals on the piano at the same time; it's not actually that uncommon. For organists, these days pipe organs are usually outfit with a sequencer that allows the organist to program a list of registration changes (the combination of pipes/stops used) ahead of time; the organist then advances through the sequence of registrations, by bumping a bumper pedal with the side…

There’ll usually be a thumb piston for the sequencer as well as a foot piston, too.

Re: Turning Over: Why page turners matter

#26

Post by anoncake » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 11:30 AM UTC

kdmccormick wrote: post #9

Drdrdrq wrote: post #6

Genuinly curious: why is this still a thing? How difficult could it be to throw together some screen, microphone and ML algorithm that would turn the pages (or roll then up) at appropriate time?

Aside from the technical challenges of this, I think that it's not exactly in the spirit of classical performance, which often is as much about the incredible skill and attention-to-detail of the people on stage as it is about the sound of the music itself. So, I imagine many skilled pianists would still prefer a human page turner over such a device, even if it did exist and functioned perfectly.

Most people aren't even aware that turning pages is a skill at all, let alone be impressed by it.

Re: Turning Over: Why page turners matter

#27

Post by todd8 » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 1:28 AM UTC

I played clarinet for a few years from around 12 years old to 17 years old; I wasn't very good. Perhaps some other HN readers have a similar background.

I was shocked to see how a woman I dated prepared for a classical orchestra performance. She was a professional musician. An envelope of music arrived with her parts for a symphony performance. She would set aside a few days to practice it, then there would be one day of rehearsal and then the performance. The pages of music were complex, far more complex than any music I'd ever played or even looked at and of course a solo or exposed piano piece would likely have even more complex music to be read, putting a great deal of dependence on the page turner.

I suppose that by the time one is taking professional gigs like this that there is a standard repertoire and that some of the pieces might be at least a bit familiar. Nevertheless, I can't understand that level of musical ability, it seems super-human.

One other interesting fact: she had taken a few private lessons from very high level performers, principal oboe at NY Philharmonic as I recall. She asked him what would happen if he missed an exposed note during a performance, like a very soft note that might not get the oboe reeds to play. He said he couldn't make a mistake without risking his job. This is hearsay and I don't remember exactly what she said his answer was, but professional orchestra performance must have very serious pressure to deal with.

Re: Turning Over: Why page turners matter

#28

Post by yellowapple » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 8:31 PM UTC

jleightcap wrote: post #22

yellowapple wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but I can't think of very many situations where you're using both feet on a piano (in fact, I don't know if that's even mechanically possible). So that leaves at least one foot. Organists would have to figure out some other strategy, though, since they do use both feet frequently. Still, if there's a button to push somewhere on the organ, that'd be at least easier than flipping a physical page.

There are many examples where two pedals are used simultaneously. If I'm remembering correctly, there's even a moment in a Ligeti Etude where all three pedals are needed. Regardless, using an iPad for sheet music is already being a adopted by classical pianists minus the foot pedals, like Yuja Wang: https://youtu.be/ZbEtk1kdYx4

Huh. Seems crazy to me; the soften and sustain pedals always seemed to be mutually exclusive (maybe not mechanically per se, but the pianos I've played on never seemed to allow both softened and sustained notes). Maybe it's just a feature of sufficiently fancy pianos (the "fanciest" on which I've ever played were baby grands in high school band classrooms).

But yeah, even a button press or screen swipe should be easy enough to be useful in all but the most extreme cases (and in those cases a combination of memorization and automatic turning (e.g. tied to a metronome) could help further).