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Drilling open a smart door lock in 4 seconds

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Re: Drilling open a smart door lock in 4 seconds

#21

Post by nieve »

mikeryan wrote: post #18
jpalomaki wrote: post #4

Slightly related to this, the Lock Picking Lawyer on Youtube has number of videos where he tries a Ramset gun [1] against different padlocks. For example: https://youtu.be/Wimo09WV-rY This was interesting as it was an attack that certainly would not have crossed my mind. Would be interesting to see how other types of locks would do against this kind of tool. [1] https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ramset-MasterShot-0-22-Cali…

Interesting - I do wonder how well that attack would work in a normal use setting where it could become much harder to brace the lock against something.

I suspect you can find a way to brace them in many circumstances, some of the common bicycle theft techniques are pretty constrained. The down side of this method for a thief is that they look very much like a handgun for obvious reasons. That ups the chance that a quick theft escalates to gunfire if you're interrupted by the police, armed security, or an armed home owner or bystander. Cops are a lot more likely to shoot you if they think they saw a gun.

Re: Drilling open a smart door lock in 4 seconds

#22

Post by sliken »

GreenJelloShot wrote: post #8

Isn't the point of a lock just to keep honest people honest? I mean you can buy the world's sturdiest, more secure lock and attach it to the world's strongest door, someone with a hammer can easily break a window. If someone is determined and willing, there really is nothing you can do to stop them from breaking into your house.

My pet peeve is smart dead bolts. Presumably if you have a dead bolt you are worried enough about security to pay for a lock that's stronger and harder to subvert than a normal door knob lock. After all using 2 keys/locks is a hassle every time you open the door. Presumably because you don't want anyone with a shim/credit card to just pop your latch.

Most would expect a dead bolt to survive a 5 second attack from a 10 year old without specialized tools.

It's sadly common to see a $150 "smart" dead bolt with dramatically less physical security than a $25 dumb dead bolt. Some have plastic cases, easily popped off. Others have plastic gears, easily over torqued. If a kid with a screwdriver can just insert the screwdriver into the keyhole and rotate and open the door you might as well not have a dead bolt.

Re: Drilling open a smart door lock in 4 seconds

#23

Post by nullc »

Security is usually a lemon market. The buyer can't really tell if its secure or not, depressing what people are willing to pay, which makes it bad business to invest in making a secure product.

It's rather difficult to find electronic locks, even for safes, that aren't obviously less secure than traditional options.

Which is pretty sad considering that an electronic lock could be substantially more secure if it was designed well.

The stuff that is reasonably secure, like kaba-mas products, are quite expensive because its catering to a market that simply isn't buying on price.

Re: Drilling open a smart door lock in 4 seconds

#24

Post by WalterBright »

Eh, I'd design an electronic lock that is operated with a phone app. There'd be nothing visible of it on the surface of the door. There'd be no way to tell what the make/model of the lock was. There'd a flange the full length of the door so you couldn't even tell where the bolt was.

Re: Drilling open a smart door lock in 4 seconds

#25

Post by fyfy18 »

GreenJelloShot wrote: post #8

Isn't the point of a lock just to keep honest people honest? I mean you can buy the world's sturdiest, more secure lock and attach it to the world's strongest door, someone with a hammer can easily break a window. If someone is determined and willing, there really is nothing you can do to stop them from breaking into your house.

Take a look at some of the European armoured doors, especially those in Italy. The door and frame come as a single piece, where the frame is made from hardened steel. I assume the door is too, but they are covered in some sort of veneer.

There is a basic cylinder lock which needs a 90 degree turn from the key outside, or the knob inside. Then there is the deadbolt mechanism which needs to be turned five or so times, and drives 1/2" steel bolts deep into the frame.

http://is.alicdn.com/img/pb/172/617/299/299617172_794.jpg

(Something like "normal", but this is a cheap Chinese knock off)

A few years ago a neighbour called the police because their son had locked himself in the apartment and they thought he was a suicide risk. They brought in the fire department to break in, but rather than cutting through the door, it was easier for them to cut through the masonry wall. Windows here are typically just as secure with triple glazing and multi-point locking as standard, and this was the third floor.

Re: Drilling open a smart door lock in 4 seconds

#26

Post by orpheline »

kilo_bravo_3 wrote: post #7

The video is a compelling demonstration of a design flaw, but I am always skeptical of lock opening displays that do not occur in a real-world application of the lock. Yeah, you ramsetted a lock. In a vise. Can you do that if it is dangling from a chain between two gate halves? Or would you bring out a bench and vise to your target? Ok, you picked a lock. In a vise. Is it easily pickable while hanging from a hasp, wi…

> Ok, you drilled open a smart lock. Is the drill able to be positioned in such a manner when the lock is installed on a door?

He drilled it from the front; the face is off in the picture where he's opening the latch with the screwdriver to better show where the mechanism is.

Re: Drilling open a smart door lock in 4 seconds

#27

Post by ineedasername »

swiley wrote: post #15
JohnFen wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't the point of a lock just to keep honest people honest? No. Honest people don't need to be "kept honest". Locks have the same purpose as other security systems (including electronic ones like crypto, etc.). They aren't intended to (and can't) keep a determined attacker out. What they do is increase the cost (in terms of time, effort, risk, etc.) of gaining access. The point is -- as far as possible -- to make…

Maybe if you live in Baltimore or Detroit but in most of the US people really need a good reason to do that kind of thing. In college I had a friend who didn't even bother locking his door and always left his keys in his car and it was never a problem.

Pretty much every suburban area has a decent amount of home burglary. Sure, rural areas not so much. But take a look at the the stats at the bottom of this page and you'll see lots more than Baltimore and Detroit: https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-most-burglaries-in-t...

Re: Drilling open a smart door lock in 4 seconds

#28

Post by ineedasername »

WalterBright wrote: post #24

Eh, I'd design an electronic lock that is operated with a phone app. There'd be nothing visible of it on the surface of the door. There'd be no way to tell what the make/model of the lock was. There'd a flange the full length of the door so you couldn't even tell where the bolt was.

What if your phone ran out of power though?

Re: Drilling open a smart door lock in 4 seconds

#29

Post by cheschire »

orpheline wrote: post #26
kilo_bravo_3 wrote: post #7

The video is a compelling demonstration of a design flaw, but I am always skeptical of lock opening displays that do not occur in a real-world application of the lock. Yeah, you ramsetted a lock. In a vise. Can you do that if it is dangling from a chain between two gate halves? Or would you bring out a bench and vise to your target? Ok, you picked a lock. In a vise. Is it easily pickable while hanging from a hasp, wi…

> Ok, you drilled open a smart lock. Is the drill able to be positioned in such a manner when the lock is installed on a door? He drilled it from the front; the face is off in the picture where he's opening the latch with the screwdriver to better show where the mechanism is.

He drilled it from the side. The preview picture from the video clearly shows the entire mechanism sideways on the table.
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