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Lost in Translation: Writing treaties in two languages can lead to problems

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Re: Lost in Translation: Writing treaties in two languages can lead to problems

#21
post #2

A prominent example of this is the Treaty establishing the European Union where every single one of the 20+ language versions is "Canon" and has to be used by the European Court of Justice. There are often judgements with paragraphs devoted to figuring out the hidden differences between certain wordings in different languages. Interestingly this can lead to problems but sometimes it also clears things up if one langu…

Yes, very correct. That is also the reason why the ECJ has autonomy over interpreting the words of treaties, regulations and so forth. An independent constructor of meaning in the EU.

Re: Lost in Translation: Writing treaties in two languages can lead to problems

#22
The problems discussed in the article are not relevant anymore today:

We can now have many professional translators work on the same documents. It's not like we have to copy treaties manually, go on a months-long journey by boat, horse or foot just to get a second opinion on a translation.

Re: Lost in Translation: Writing treaties in two languages can lead to problems

#23
post #2

A prominent example of this is the Treaty establishing the European Union where every single one of the 20+ language versions is "Canon" and has to be used by the European Court of Justice. There are often judgements with paragraphs devoted to figuring out the hidden differences between certain wordings in different languages. Interestingly this can lead to problems but sometimes it also clears things up if one langu…

Interesting, can you link to some examples? I've read a few ECJ judgements in some high-profile cases, and I've never seen this.

For example in C-528/15 (http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&doc...)

"As regards the wording of Article 2(n) of the Dublin III Regulation, a purely textual analysis of the notion of ‘defined by law’ cannot determine whether case-law or a consistent administrative practice are capable of coming within that concept. In the different language versions of that regulation, the term equivalent to the term ‘loi (legislation)’ has a different scope. Thus, the wording used, for example, in the English-, Polish- and Slovak-language versions is similar to the concept of ‘droit (law in the general sense’), which can have a wider scope than ‘loi (legislation)’. Certain other versions, for example, the Bulgarian-, Spanish-, Czech-, German- and French-language versions, have a more restrictive scope.

32 Where the various language versions differ, the scope of the provision in question cannot be determined on the basis of an interpretation which is exclusively textual, but must be interpreted by reference to the purpose and general scheme of the rules of which it forms part (judgment of 26 May 2016, Envirotec Denmark, C‑550/14, EU:C:2016:354, paragraph 28 and the case-law cited)."

As already mentioned this is often just one part of a bigger ruling and the translations are often good enough so that it's not necessary to dissect the whole text like this.

By the way: I think it's an interesting challenge to translate the Treaties (and regulations etc). You don't want to have too much divergence between the different language versions but sometimes it can be very difficult to translate something exactly without using a lot of words.

One tactic that is used in European law in this regard is to start the regulation with a preamble "definition" section (similar to writing a program) where you define all the important words/phrases.

Re: Lost in Translation: Writing treaties in two languages can lead to problems

#24
post #4

> In the United Nations Security Council (UNSC) Resolution 242, the French text instructed Israel to withdraw from ‘des territoires’ (the territories) it occupied during the 1967 Six-Day War. The English text, however, merely read ‘territories’, removing the definite article and thus leaving ambiguous how much territory Israel should cede. This is inaccurate. « Des territoires » would be more accurately translated as…

This is obvious weasel wording. during the writing of the resolution it was made clear that it meant all the territories.

This is how it was phrased:

>(i) Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

any native enlgish speaker can read the declaration and see from the contest that it clear that all territories taken during the war are meant.

The Israelis came up with this facetious excuse to try to encroach on more land.

indeed, when one says "Dogs must be kept on the lead near ponds in the park."

it does not mean, for any sane person that some dogs shouldn't be kept on the lead near ponds in the park.

Also:

"it is an accepted rule that the various language versions must be considered together, with the ambiguities of one version elucidated by the other"

Plus, the reason that Israel must give back the territory is the prohibition of acquiring land by force.

If you can't acquire land by force. you can't acquire any land by force. it's illogical for the rule to only apply on some but not all land taken by force.

Re: Lost in Translation: Writing treaties in two languages can lead to problems

#25
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proficiency in another language is the minimum I expect of diplomats. It's not like every citizen has to speak it.

Which is my second point: citizens will have to follow and vote on the law of their country, including international treaties, without understanding them since they are not written in their language.

I imagine most voters do not read proposed bills in their own language as it stands, instead relying on reporters' summaries as they would for foreign language versions.

Re: Lost in Translation: Writing treaties in two languages can lead to problems

#26
post #3

This seems like a solved problem: agree at the time which translation takes precedence in the event of a dispute. Use a third language (historically French was the language of diplomacy, now English, but for modern treaties you could pick any major world language) if, as is likely, neither side likes the idea of the binding version being in the other side's language. The same problem has to be solved in countries wit…

Third party language implies that either citizens of country 1 must learn this third party language to the proficiency needed to understand legalese; or to both be expected to know, understand and apply the law but not be able to read it.

Could Latin perhaps fit the bill? It's already popular with lawyers

Re: Lost in Translation: Writing treaties in two languages can lead to problems

#28
post #22

The problems discussed in the article are not relevant anymore today: We can now have many professional translators work on the same documents. It's not like we have to copy treaties manually, go on a months-long journey by boat, horse or foot just to get a second opinion on a translation.

I don't think availability of documents was at all implied to be the issue. It's more about two actors arguing over semantics, but each actor has a different set of rules to make their case.

Re: Lost in Translation: Writing treaties in two languages can lead to problems

#29
post #28
post #22

The problems discussed in the article are not relevant anymore today: We can now have many professional translators work on the same documents. It's not like we have to copy treaties manually, go on a months-long journey by boat, horse or foot just to get a second opinion on a translation.

I don't think availability of documents was at all implied to be the issue. It's more about two actors arguing over semantics, but each actor has a different set of rules to make their case.

Which one would not sign in a time where translations can be checked instantaneously by a legion of translators. You don't have to trust a single translation anymore, you have enough translators to discuss every possible way of misinterpretations before accepting a translation.

Re: Lost in Translation: Writing treaties in two languages can lead to problems

#30

As a software engineer who cares deeply about testing, I sometimes find myself wishing that there was a way to run a binding moot court on a law before it got ratified.

If it is binding then it not really moot is it?
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