Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A Reflection on the Departure of RMS

medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 45 posts

Re: A Reflection on the Departure of RMS

#21

Post by snowwrestler »

scohesc wrote: post #14
snowwrestler wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some smart people do have Asperger's, per a professional diagnosis. It does not help those people to just take anyone who acts weird but seems smart and say "they probably have Asperger's." Mental disorders should be taken seriously. That means helping and accommodating people who suffer from disorders, including Asperger's. But it also means resisting the temptation to invent pop diagnoses in order to excuse behavio…

I have lived most my life with 3 people who have Asperger's and I've worked with many people who have Asperger's. He's exhibiting 99.9% of the signs that he has Asperger's. It's not a "pop" diagnosis of any sort.

Unless you are literally a trained doctor, it is a pop diagnosis.

Re: A Reflection on the Departure of RMS

#22

Post by viraptor »

scohesc wrote: post #5

I'm pretty sure RMS exhibits most of all of the symptoms of Asperger's and would immediately get the diagnosis if he walked into a psychiatrists' office. It's a bit ignorant for Bushnell to be degrading RMS by calling him a "a whiny child who has never reached the emotional maturity to treat people decently" when the man 99.9% likely cannot cognitively do so. It's really unfortunate that people with Asperger's (poten…

> "a whiny child who has never reached the emotional maturity to treat people decently" when the man 99.9% likely cannot cognitively do so.

This is simply not a black and white situation. I'm familiar with people with Asperger's who can both behave nicely to others and who are aware of their limitations and actively work on thinking through their situation to counteract those limits. Being diagnosed is not a license to be a dick. If someone actually can't handle this, then it is a disadvantage for a public position and they likely shouldn't hold it.

Re: A Reflection on the Departure of RMS

#23

Post by ZeroGravitas »

zozbot234 wrote: post #4

I'm quite willing to entertain the notion that RMS was a problem in some sense (though, if he has been 'coddled' for decades , one has to wonder if that problem was due to any fault of his own that he ought to have been cognizant of!) But pay attention to what this post is actually saying. It's inappropriate to defend Minsky in the wake of the Epstein scandal? (And there are people, considered reliable by others, who…

On a slight tangent to your comment about it being inappropriate to defend Minsky:

Did RMS think that's what he was doing? He accidentally threw Minsky under the bus by a) believing an accusation that hadn't actually been made in court as far as I can tell b) trying to change the word used to describe the act by inventing "plausible" scenarios that make it seem better.

Why RMS thought it plausible that his friend had sex with a 17 year old as long as there was plausible deniability (stretching the word plausible here) that she wasn't an underage sex slave is a question worth asking.

Re: A Reflection on the Departure of RMS

#24

Post by foobar_ »

zozbot234 wrote: post #4

I'm quite willing to entertain the notion that RMS was a problem in some sense (though, if he has been 'coddled' for decades , one has to wonder if that problem was due to any fault of his own that he ought to have been cognizant of!) But pay attention to what this post is actually saying. It's inappropriate to defend Minsky in the wake of the Epstein scandal? (And there are people, considered reliable by others, who…

> RMS must go because he is fat and ugly, and thus makes women uncomfortable (the horror!)

That's pretty much the definition of a creep. Women still gushing over Ted Bundy. We forgive pretty people for many sins. Let's not forget that Dolores Umbridges among women. I've had to work with one ... would not let around her a million miles from my dog.

Re: A Reflection on the Departure of RMS

#25

Post by jeegsy »

NateEag wrote: post #12
zozbot234 wrote: post #4

I'm quite willing to entertain the notion that RMS was a problem in some sense (though, if he has been 'coddled' for decades , one has to wonder if that problem was due to any fault of his own that he ought to have been cognizant of!) But pay attention to what this post is actually saying. It's inappropriate to defend Minsky in the wake of the Epstein scandal? (And there are people, considered reliable by others, who…

I suggest you read the articles linked in the posted link, and also this story by Steven Levy: https://www.wired.com/story/richard-stallman-and-the-fall-of... Threatening to kill yourself if someone won't go out with you is terrible behavior at a bunch of levels: https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix... (search for "When I was a teen freshman"). It's clear that Stallman was not just "trying to…

"The fall of the clueless nerd" indeed. The headline in the wired story linked triggers the hell out of me. I suppose we have come full circle, Nerds suck, then they were cool and now they have been consigned back to uncool again. For the life of me, based on the snippets i've seen regarding his interactions with women, the only advice I can give him and ppl like him if they could have a do-over is stay away from women period. Which causes other problems but I will gladly have those problems than have an icon of an industry/space that I love be exiled in such an ignominious fashion.

Re: A Reflection on the Departure of RMS

#26

Post by eesmith »

foobar_ wrote: post #24
zozbot234 wrote: post #4

I'm quite willing to entertain the notion that RMS was a problem in some sense (though, if he has been 'coddled' for decades , one has to wonder if that problem was due to any fault of his own that he ought to have been cognizant of!) But pay attention to what this post is actually saying. It's inappropriate to defend Minsky in the wake of the Epstein scandal? (And there are people, considered reliable by others, who…

> RMS must go because he is fat and ugly, and thus makes women uncomfortable (the horror!) That's pretty much the definition of a creep. Women still gushing over Ted Bundy. We forgive pretty people for many sins. Let's not forget that Dolores Umbridges among women. I've had to work with one ... would not let around her a million miles from my dog.

"fat and ugly" is not the definition of a creep. Stallman's "creep" factor comes in part from his way of making inappropriate sexual advances. Here are some examples of people calling him a creep:

"There are many valid criticisms of Richard Stallman: ... he has creeped out some women by making passes at them (or so they tell me). - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2327849 (2011)

There are stories on Twitter like the following from 2018, https://twitter.com/suzanne_hillman/status/99459683376166092.... :

> He flirts with anyone who is female, even if they are underage. He is creepy in person, in a way that I cannot adequately describe. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that he kept women out of open source and free software, and many of his ideas stayed even after he left.

Or https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2019/09/17/rms-resig.... :

> rms was in the whisper network as a creep when I was in undergrad late last millennium, and I wasn’t even at MIT.

Re: A Reflection on the Departure of RMS

#27

Post by foobar_ »

eesmith wrote: post #26
foobar_ wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> RMS must go because he is fat and ugly, and thus makes women uncomfortable (the horror!) That's pretty much the definition of a creep. Women still gushing over Ted Bundy. We forgive pretty people for many sins. Let's not forget that Dolores Umbridges among women. I've had to work with one ... would not let around her a million miles from my dog.

"fat and ugly" is not the definition of a creep. Stallman's "creep" factor comes in part from his way of making inappropriate sexual advances. Here are some examples of people calling him a creep: "There are many valid criticisms of Richard Stallman: ... he has creeped out some women by making passes at them (or so they tell me). - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2327849 (2011) There are stories on Twitter like…

If he was not ugly would you consider his behaviour creeping or mild flirtatiousness?

There was a whole Justin Bieber creeping his followers, where no one seemed to complain.

I'm pretty sure if someone said "No" please stop doing then RMS would stop. Are there cases where he didn't? If so .. I take back my words.

Autistic types or Asperger types whatever you want to call it ... take things very literally. They are visual-oriented and big-picture thinkers. This affects both men and women btw. Verbal thinking is not their strong suit. Body language reading is not their strong suit. Sarcasm and mean communication is not their strong suit. They are blunt and straightforward to a fault. Autistic types will be Autistic even in Rome.

This almost seems like Gallelio being house arrested because the feminist popes couldn't comprehend him.

If the average girl expects psychic powers of body language reading and reading the room before you utter a word ... that's just expecting men to behave like women. It's never going to happen.

Re: A Reflection on the Departure of RMS

#28

Post by faissaloo »

jzb wrote: post #20
faissaloo wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever something like this happens some sort of accusation around this sort of behaviour always seems to emerge, I really have to question the validity of such claims

I guess it wouldn't occur to you that the claims are valid, hence the reason they keep cropping up...

I considered that and dismissed it because it's frequently been proven that these accusations have had no merit.

Re: A Reflection on the Departure of RMS

#29

Post by eesmith »

foobar_ wrote: post #27
eesmith wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"fat and ugly" is not the definition of a creep. Stallman's "creep" factor comes in part from his way of making inappropriate sexual advances. Here are some examples of people calling him a creep: "There are many valid criticisms of Richard Stallman: ... he has creeped out some women by making passes at them (or so they tell me). - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2327849 (2011) There are stories on Twitter like…

If he was not ugly would you consider his behaviour creeping or mild flirtatiousness? There was a whole Justin Bieber creeping his followers, where no one seemed to complain. I'm pretty sure if someone said "No" please stop doing then RMS would stop. Are there cases where he didn't? If so .. I take back my words. Autistic types or Asperger types whatever you want to call it ... take things very literally. They are vi…

Why have whisper network, as one of the quotes I mentioned, if being "fat and ugly" is all that's needed to recognize a creep?

I do not think Stallman is ugly, so I don't know why that's even an issue. He's had at least one girlfriend, so it's not like his physical attributes are a universal turn-off. Can you find women writing they don't like him because he's fat and ugly? Because finding accounts of women who dislike his creepy sexual advances is not hard.

Do not use 'Autistic types or Asperger types' as a "boys will be boys" type excuse. I'll quote an autistic person, at https://twitter.com/HickeyWriter/status/1172674056828661764

> I'm autistic. I am not good at social cues. I have, in my time, held quite a few shitty, offensive opinions. But when people have pointed out how awful those opinions are to me, I've thought "Oh shit, they're right," apologised, and changed my opinions.

Or from another autistic person, at https://twitter.com/mykola/status/1172685579424817152 :

> Being autistic doesn't make you an asshole, certainly not a pedophile. It mostly makes you a little weird.

Your argument, if it makes any sense, means that Stallman should have been kicked out long ago because he was being surrounded by enablers and yes-men who didn't provide the feedback he needed for his position.

Which, as you likely know, is one of the comments made by the linked-to page:

> I was around for most of the 90s, and I can confirm the unfortunate reality that RMS’s behavior was a concern at the time, and that this protection [by Minsky and the AI Lab] was itself part of the problem. He was never held to account; he was himself coddled in his own lower-grade misbehavior and mistreatment of women. He made the place uncomfortable for a lot of people, and especially women.

How can you meaningfully write "Justin Bieber creeping his followers" if you think "creeping" means "fat and ugly"?

And, "the feminist popes" ... WTF?!

Re: A Reflection on the Departure of RMS

#30

Post by zozbot234 »

eesmith wrote: post #29
foobar_ wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If he was not ugly would you consider his behaviour creeping or mild flirtatiousness? There was a whole Justin Bieber creeping his followers, where no one seemed to complain. I'm pretty sure if someone said "No" please stop doing then RMS would stop. Are there cases where he didn't? If so .. I take back my words. Autistic types or Asperger types whatever you want to call it ... take things very literally. They are vi…

Why have whisper network, as one of the quotes I mentioned, if being "fat and ugly" is all that's needed to recognize a creep? I do not think Stallman is ugly, so I don't know why that's even an issue. He's had at least one girlfriend, so it's not like his physical attributes are a universal turn-off. Can you find women writing they don't like him because he's fat and ugly? Because finding accounts of women who disli…

> Why have whisper network, as one of the quotes I mentioned, if being "fat and ugly" is all that's needed to recognize a creep?

You think people aren't doing it all the time? Gossiping around folks, calling them fat and ugly behind their back? "Creep" is just the next step in the bullying ladder. (Of course, RMS hasn't exactly made things hard for his bullies. But let's not pretend that this sort of dynamic never happens in such cases.)

Post reply on HN