Wow, such a long article in what probably could be condensed into 1 a4 sized page if you really are just about answering the question posed. Who actually reads articles like this? I am genuinely curious. Comes off as information overload to me and it's hard to know what to believe.
I do. William Langewiesche is probably the best writer on aviation - if you want really deep and detailed analysis.
What Really Brought Down the Boeing 737 Max?
21–30 of 44 posts
Re: What Really Brought Down the Boeing 737 Max?
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would actually still place this failure directly at Boeing's feet. Games like the ones Boeing was trying to play (overhauling an entire aircraft without having to change type rating and retrain pilots) directly lead to situations like this. Yes, the FAA / NTSB should have been more effective, but regulatory capture like this is common. It's ultimately Boeing's job to manage the risk: losing 2 airframes in a matter…
Yes, I'm surprised that more shareholders and more of Congress haven't been calling both for Dennis Muilenburg's head and the end to self certification.
Re: What Really Brought Down the Boeing 737 Max?
#23Wow, such a long article in what probably could be condensed into 1 a4 sized page if you really are just about answering the question posed. Who actually reads articles like this? I am genuinely curious. Comes off as information overload to me and it's hard to know what to believe.
I do. William Langewiesche is probably the best writer on aviation - if you want really deep and detailed analysis.
I can listen to or view content that are hours long but in text format it's kind of overwhelming to me. Mainly because I cannot do anything else than read while I am reading which makes reading such a piece a very time-consuming task. I'd rather do something else than read such an article but it's probably for the best that there are people like you who like it as well.
Re: What Really Brought Down the Boeing 737 Max?
#24Earlier quoted context omitted.
I like the brake pedal analogy. It's not perfect, but it makes the point well. To add insult to injury, when the driver flipped a cut-out switch to disable the cruise control, the brakes were useless, the manual brake adjustment lever failed, and the only documented procedure to fix them at that point (for that model plane, err, car) was to turn cruise control back on.
As someone who's driven a lot of vehicles in various states of mechanical failure I don't. Once you stop treating a vehicle as a magical black box where everything affects everything the analogy falls apart. Vehicles have predictable failure mode and systems that are integrated with each other in known and fairly standardized ways. Short of catastrophic mechanical failure (i. e the front fell off) someone with suffic…
To someone who has no idea what "trim" is, let alone electric assist versus manual trim, MCAS, aerodynamic loading,... the brake pedal analogy gets the general point across of what it must have felt like to the pilots, to be fighting against the machine.
Re: What Really Brought Down the Boeing 737 Max?
#25This reads like yet another PR attempt by Boeing execs to shift the blame for the deaths away from their chronic mismanagement to pilot error.
> His co-pilot was an Indonesian 10 years his elder who went by the single name Harvino[...]. Like thousands of new pilots now meeting the demands for crews — especially those in developing countries with rapid airline growth — his experience with flying was scripted, bounded by checklists and cockpit mandates and dependent on autopilots. He had some rote knowledge of cockpit procedures as handed down from the big manufacturers, but he was weak in an essential quality known as airmanship. Sadly, his captain turned out to be weak in it, too.
[...]
> [“Airmanship”'s] full meaning is difficult to convey. It includes a visceral sense of navigation, an operational understanding of weather and weather information, the ability to form mental maps of traffic flows, fluency in the nuance of radio communications and, especially, a deep appreciation for the interplay between energy, inertia and wings. Airplanes are living things. The best pilots do not sit in cockpits so much as strap them on.
Am I reading an article about airplanes or some pamphlet for essential oils or audiophile gear? "Crisp sound, deep basses, muddy mid-range, decent airmanship".
On another forum that'd make for nice copypasta:
> “31337 h4x0r”'s full meaning is difficult to convey. It includes a visceral sense of Vim motions, an operational understanding of Virtual Memory mapping and paging information, the ability to form mental maps of callstacks, fluency in the nuance of various calling conventions and, especially, a deep appreciation for the interplay between energy, scripting engines and multithreading. Computers are living things. The best coders are artisans more than engineers.
I'll be sure to keep this one saved somewhere for the next time I crash something in production.
Re: What Really Brought Down the Boeing 737 Max?
#26The TLDR is something like: the 373 max crashes are the result of a lack of “airmanship” by pilots of the airlines of developing countries, a quality the author acknowledges he can’t define. But he feels the pilots make many “really dumb” errors and are incompetent. And the airlines that employ and often train them are crappy.
Meanwhile, Boeing is mostly blameless. Sure, there were “bewildering” design decisions but those didn’t have much to do with it. The article suggests Boeing’s mistake may have been that, unlike Airbus, it failed to appreciate how idiotic pilots have become.
Ok, I failed to make my TLDR short.
This article doesn’t go over very well with me. The problem with blaming the problem on an unmeasureable quality (“airmanship”) is that it leaves no room for a rational solution. He suggests the max should be ungrounded, but how can you do that without improving airmanship, and how can you do that if you can’t meaningfully quantify it?
While it does a great job of presenting many facts across several threads, it reads like the author wants to minimize Boeing’s responsibility and interprets all the facts through that lens.
Re: What Really Brought Down the Boeing 737 Max?
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
I like the brake pedal analogy. It's not perfect, but it makes the point well. To add insult to injury, when the driver flipped a cut-out switch to disable the cruise control, the brakes were useless, the manual brake adjustment lever failed, and the only documented procedure to fix them at that point (for that model plane, err, car) was to turn cruise control back on.
As someone who's driven a lot of vehicles in various states of mechanical failure I don't. Once you stop treating a vehicle as a magical black box where everything affects everything the analogy falls apart. Vehicles have predictable failure mode and systems that are integrated with each other in known and fairly standardized ways. Short of catastrophic mechanical failure (i. e the front fell off) someone with suffic…
I agree. But you need to knowe that a system exists in the first place.
Something the manufacturer failed to document to begin with.
Re: What Really Brought Down the Boeing 737 Max?
#28"If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself." - Dr Joseph Goebbels. My god, the PR on behalf of Boeing by The NY Times is embarrassing. The accidents were the result of various actions which increased the risk and decreased safety. All beginning with moving the engines forward and up which changed the flight envelope, requiring more complex systems. Followe…
I like the brake pedal analogy. It's not perfect, but it makes the point well. To add insult to injury, when the driver flipped a cut-out switch to disable the cruise control, the brakes were useless, the manual brake adjustment lever failed, and the only documented procedure to fix them at that point (for that model plane, err, car) was to turn cruise control back on.
At least in terms of the pilot's POV. I can't quite torture anything else to sufficiently resemble what chain of business decisions Boeing made to end up having their process drive them into this error state. It'll just have to stand on it's own merit. Though I've commented on it many times with much greater detail this year.
Re: What Really Brought Down the Boeing 737 Max?
#29Finally, one lone voice cuts through the hysteria and garbage and speaks the unpopular truth. The good old boy culture of training men inadequately so that they can, at best, monitor an aircraft's systems, and then pretending that they are pilots is what killed those people. You don't like it, but it's the truth.
I mean, I agree with you to a point. There is a delight taken by manufacturers being able to ostensibly cut training costs.
But in this case, the fact was the plane itself was unsoundly engineered. Even highly skilled pilots have failed to rescue the plane in a simulator. The pilot cannot be the primary carrier of blame when the equipment in the best hands available had only a 66% chance of having the pilot recover AFTER being made aware of what to expect.
Boeing is definitely the right one on whom to shoulder the blame here.
EDIT: Okay, On further consideration, I do see where you're coming from with the article's focus on "airmanship". My primary contention, however, remains. You can put a dangerous plane in the hands of a good airman, and you still have an airman flying a dangerous plane. That is the issue most seem to be bothered by. Even if the "modern pilot" doesn't have that visceral connection to their planes, that's no excuse for a manufacturer to produce one that requires extreme levels of airmanship to divine the existence of a system they couldn't admit the existence, severity, or implementation of to regulators for fear of not meeting deadlines.
Again, I agree with you to a point, and believe you did make a good point. Just wanted to make it clear that I don't think it should detract from Boeing's clear malfeasance here.
Re: What Really Brought Down the Boeing 737 Max?
#30An aircraft has a flight envelop that defines its flight characteristics. Not only does it define in how fast or slow or high it can operate, but how that operation changes if something changes in performance. For instance, engines under the wing and on the tail cause differences as power is gained or lost. Under the wing, an increase in power will push the nose up, and a loss in power will cause the nose to drop. This is the opposite of tail mounted engines. The whole point of training a pilot is make it instinctive to expect what the plane will do when things go wrong, ie. if you are in a tail engine plane and loose suddenly power, expect that you are moving closer to a stall. The plane will both be raising the nose and losing speed. Again, vice versa for wing mounted engine. There is also another important point. If the pilot kills/loses the engine, is a neutral failure: the flight envelope does not change. The engine is no longer providing thrust so the plane orients merely to a new position in its flight envelope. But, failure in the flight system for the Max does something totally different.
The whole point of the MCAS flight computer is make the plane appear as though it has a different flight envelope. The computer automagically adjusts the flight services, notably by moving the trim. What really bothers me about the idea of using software to alter the flight characteristics is that any failure results in the plane not only falling back on a fight envelope that isn’t what the pilot trained on, but also to a point in the flight envelope that the pilot didn’t even choose (ie. trim being in some arbitrary position). Worse than that, an MCAS failure is negative. The very point of the computer system is “out guess” and compensate for the pilot’s expectations of his or her trained flight envelop; thus, if the computer believes it is operating correctly but is not, it is actively making an arbitrary flight envelope that could be constantly changing. The pilot must deduce the MCAS software is at fault while the MCAS software is deducing the pilot is at fault.
Everything I have ever seen is that the whole point of airplane design and pilot training is to reduce flight problems to known solutions as to resolve the problem as quickly as possible. The very design of MCAS is failure must put the pilot into an unknown position and likely be actively combating the pilot’s understand of the situation. If this logic is correct, I cannot fathom how any of this is acceptable.