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California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

nytimes.com

21–30 of 119 posts

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#21
post #3

Good. People forget the past all too easily. It took a lot to get us the protections we have today. Giving them up so easily is a mistake. For those thinking this is overreach and stifling innovation you need to look back at history and realise the same thing could be said about many commonplace workers rights that you take for granted now.

The fact that you're bing down voted is beyond me.

My wife describes engineers as 'smartdumb'.

We're super smart at figuring out technical solutions that enable things like social media, ridesharing and short term rentals.

But we're either willfully ignorant or just plain dumb about the second order effects on society.

And you know what you call it when people discuss the social good? Politics.

That very thing that coincidentally we're not supposed to talk about on this site.

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#22
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it doesn't fit a strict definition of "feudalism", large parts of the gig economy are very exploitative, which is also a characteristic of feudalism. And feudalism is generally regarded as a bad thing.

You're inadvertently making precisely my original point: "exploitation" and "bad thing" are incredibly general properties that exist in many systems, and it's not useful or insightful to compare them to feudalism.

If someone called a haircut feudalistic because it was bad then that’s dumbing down words to just good or bad.

Calling a type of employment relationship feudalistic because of the amount of power the employer has is at least somewhat descriptive.

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#23
post #2

So "feudalism" = "things I think are bad?" The gig economy has many, many downsides, but those downsides don't share much at all in common with feudalism, even by analogy. If we let all words deteriorate to mean simply "good" or "bad" (with gradations of good or badness), we're barely communicating.

My understanding is that the definition of feudalism is:

- Royalty allows vassals to "own" land in exchange for a portion of the income from the land.

- Royalty has an obligation to protect the vassals while vassals have an obligation to fight for the land owners.

- Similarly, vassals allowed peasants to "own" part of their land and were obligated to protect them in exchange for part of the income from the land.

- Peasants often were not allowed to leave their land (effectively change employers). However, it's not clear to me if this is an inherent feature of feudalism.

In terms of whether any of this is analogous to feudalism:

- I think you could draw a pretty solid analogy in a situation where a corporation provided a major piece of property (e.g. a vehicle) in exchange for continued labor. However, that seems more like something you see in trucking than in the modern gig economy.

- You could maybe argue that situations where a person rents the property they need to do their job (e.g. a car for Uber) is analogous to the way that peasants rented their land. However, a better analogy might be to some of the schemes where, for example, employees are paid in scrip which they also had to use to purchase their tools.

- You could argue that, feudalism is analogous to how working class people in many cities are unlikely to ever make enough to own a house and therefore they only "own" them (via renting) as long as they keep working. However, this seems like it's more about inequality in general than the gig economy specifically.

- The fact that employees often have to keep working for bad employees in order to avoid being labeled a "job hopper", due to a non-compete, or just due to the difficulties of changing jobs has reasonable similarities to peasants being unable to leave their land. However, these are problems that are actually more common in jobs that are outside the gig economy.

- In at least one sense modern employment relationships are worse than feudalism: In feudalism the vassal has an obligation to protect their peasants while a corporation can fire an employee at a moments notice. However, again this isn't restricted to the gig economy.

Overall, I agree with you that feudalism is a poor analogy for the gig economy specifically. However, I think it is a fair analogy for some aspects of modern capitalism as a whole.

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#24

The way to reshape labour laws is to offer an alternative job defining the socially minimum acceptable job in a local area. Business then has to compete with that to attract labour. No other labour law required. Simple competition sorts it out. That is also has the advantage of being a geographically targeted federal automatic stabiliser that operates far more effectively than interest rate targeting via bank lending…

No what you really need is federal binding minimum standards for Annual leave (4 weeks ) and Sick pay and minimum wage. Repeal all the right to work laws and massively reduce the ability of employers to use non compeats (us CA as a model here I think)

How do you decide who qualifies for four weeks pay? that is a significant cost to many small businesses. Do you limit it based on how many employees they have? How many hours the employee averages per week? The last time Congress set limits they threw low wage earners under the bus; the now infamous ACA twenty nine hour rule.

minimum wage should not be at the federal level, it is a state by state and city by city issue that should be based upon cost of living in that area. federal laws should protect from working without pay and discrimination. if localities wanted to protect low wage earners they woulds step back occupational license requirements for many positions and reduce the burden of fees and regulatory compliance as well; that twenty to twenty five dollar fee some states charge just for a license may not be bad for you or me but for the low wage earner it is very bad. having to pay five hundred dollars for a license to work is no better, but these costs exist and are not income scaled

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#25
post #18
post #2

So "feudalism" = "things I think are bad?" The gig economy has many, many downsides, but those downsides don't share much at all in common with feudalism, even by analogy. If we let all words deteriorate to mean simply "good" or "bad" (with gradations of good or badness), we're barely communicating.

I see analogy between capitalism and feudalism in how some people defend rich founders and owners of private companies. In feudalism, it was common to ascribe the collective success of a nation (or a smaller, land-owning group of people in a given region) to a single individual, the feudal lord. He had the ultimate (and hereditary) authority over the operations of the group, by virtue of successfully coordinating the…

There is a system where it works more like the way you are suggesting -- it's called communism.

The key reason why capitalism isn't "Feudalism 2.0" is because companies compete in a marketplace against each other, and there is freedom of mobility between employees across those companies. So maybe you could say that anti-trust law is a key component to ensure that your analogy is false.

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No what you really need is federal binding minimum standards for Annual leave (4 weeks ) and Sick pay and minimum wage. Repeal all the right to work laws and massively reduce the ability of employers to use non compeats (us CA as a model here I think)

How do you decide who qualifies for four weeks pay? that is a significant cost to many small businesses. Do you limit it based on how many employees they have? How many hours the employee averages per week? The last time Congress set limits they threw low wage earners under the bus; the now infamous ACA twenty nine hour rule. minimum wage should not be at the federal level, it is a state by state and city by city iss…

> How do you decide who qualifies for four weeks pay?

You don't. Every full-time employee have right to paid holidays, like we have in every other country in the world.

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#27
post #2

So "feudalism" = "things I think are bad?" The gig economy has many, many downsides, but those downsides don't share much at all in common with feudalism, even by analogy. If we let all words deteriorate to mean simply "good" or "bad" (with gradations of good or badness), we're barely communicating.

We could even take an additional step on the path of honest communication and instead of "good" and "bad", say "things I like" and "things I dislike".

Who decides what's good or bad? Who decides who decides? Where is the depth of knowledge, logic, and reason behind that? When it comes to good and bad we often lack these things and if we did I would wager we are not on the same page.

"things I like" and "things I dislike" are far more honest and genuine.

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#28
post #3

Good. People forget the past all too easily. It took a lot to get us the protections we have today. Giving them up so easily is a mistake. For those thinking this is overreach and stifling innovation you need to look back at history and realise the same thing could be said about many commonplace workers rights that you take for granted now.

The fact that you're bing down voted is beyond me. My wife describes engineers as 'smartdumb'. We're super smart at figuring out technical solutions that enable things like social media, ridesharing and short term rentals. But we're either willfully ignorant or just plain dumb about the second order effects on society. And you know what you call it when people discuss the social good? Politics. That very thing that c…

Seeing people say things like "Simple competition sorts it out" as if any complex problem can be answered like that. We should really know better, given our field.

Also interesting that basically anyone saying anything mildly critical of capitalism is getting downvoted without much response

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you decide who qualifies for four weeks pay? that is a significant cost to many small businesses. Do you limit it based on how many employees they have? How many hours the employee averages per week? The last time Congress set limits they threw low wage earners under the bus; the now infamous ACA twenty nine hour rule. minimum wage should not be at the federal level, it is a state by state and city by city iss…

> How do you decide who qualifies for four weeks pay? You don't. Every full-time employee have right to paid holidays, like we have in every other country in the world.

That leads to less full-time employees. People will get their hours cut.

Maybe we need to consider someone who works more than 15 hours a week full time. Or perhaps the benefits scale for employees based on number of hours worked.

Re: California bill will drive a national debate over how to reshape labor laws

#30

The way to reshape labour laws is to offer an alternative job defining the socially minimum acceptable job in a local area. Business then has to compete with that to attract labour. No other labour law required. Simple competition sorts it out. That is also has the advantage of being a geographically targeted federal automatic stabiliser that operates far more effectively than interest rate targeting via bank lending…

> ends unemployment permanently and forever is just an added bonus.

Until those businesses which cannot survive in this model go away so even the part time job they had won't be around anymore...

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