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Troubles with the AWS web console

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Re: Troubles with the AWS web console

#21

It seems to me that there is a quite profitable business case in a thin abstraction over AWS/Azure/Google App Engine (or whatever it's called now). There are lots of services like Zeit Now and Heroku that supply a complex abstraction to the point where it feels like an entirely different product. What I would want is something that allows me to host docker images/K8s on one of the big three (I guess others as well) a…

This is what Cloudkick [1] was setting out to do when they were funded by YC back in early 2009. But they were acquired by Rackspace [2] less than 2 years later, the product was discontinued, and nothing seems to have filled the void ever since. Seems like that kind of service is more necessary now than ever.

[1] https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/cloudkick

[2] https://techcrunch.com/2010/12/16/rackspace-buys-server-mana...

Re: Troubles with the AWS web console

#22

It seems to me that there is a quite profitable business case in a thin abstraction over AWS/Azure/Google App Engine (or whatever it's called now). There are lots of services like Zeit Now and Heroku that supply a complex abstraction to the point where it feels like an entirely different product. What I would want is something that allows me to host docker images/K8s on one of the big three (I guess others as well) a…

That's the last thing AWS wants you to be able to do, actually use the cloud like a commodity. Hence their quarterly announcements of increasingly weird and wonderful marginally "added value" services which never quite behave like anything else and where you'd have a hard time mapping the functionality onto an abstracted interface.

Re: Troubles with the AWS web console

#23
post #2

I am pretty sure the AWS business model is to get you to write your own code that interacts with the API so that when you think about switching to another provider, you realize that you're throwing away months of work and decide not to. They also make the API requests take so many parameters that are specific to your particular use case that nobody will ever be able to write a generic tool that does what you want. Ev…

To an extent that makes sense, but I think Amazon is just generally bad at web design for reasons unknown to me. Their plain old shopping site has been horrible ever since, inconsistent and confusing, and here you can't even excuse this with diving people to an API. Maybe it's to keep people browsing for longer and get them to buy more but that's assuming it outweighs the frustration induced by it.

It’s interesting you mention the shopping site. I have found their site horrible ever since the beginning and only marginally better since done of their belabored efforts to polish some things. I feel like both WAS and the shopping UI/UX are dependent on an overarching common effect; your willingness to suffer in order to get the hit of addiction. On the shopping site it’s the relative speed and gratification of the purchase in addition to the Christmas like anticipation of package delivery, in AWS it’s the general, relatively best (note the intentional avoidance of “good”) in class overall outcome (a function that includes the universality of AWS in the industry); which both matter way more than everything else, even combined.

Think of an Amazon shopping competitor that has a great site UX and actually makes good recommendations (no, Amazon, I do not need 20 more variations on lightbulbs I just bought), the site UX and recommendations, among other things; would surely have to cumulatively far exceed the perceive value placed on the immediacy of AMZ logistics operation that can have you the thing you lust after on the same day sometimes.

I’m certain AMZ knows quite well, just as Google, FB, etc., they have a monopoly of Good Enough in core competencies to both maintain their monopoly and stave off or at least frustrate competitors through their monopolization of our minds. It’s a new type of monopoly, Mental Monopoly, suited for the Information Age abstracted from the physical world of goods.

It’s why we suffer through Amz, Aws, as well as put up with google and YouTube and fb and endless scrolling through rubbish on Netflix … they have a grip on our lazy mind because they’re all Good Enough and there is no one that is enforcing comptmltition in a manner that is appropriate for thevtech industry.

Re: Troubles with the AWS web console

#25
If you think you are in such a strong position that you can keep customers even with the level of inconsistency of the AWS UI, siloed microfrontends might be something to consider. Otherwise it’s probably not such a good idea.

Re: Troubles with the AWS web console

#26
On the other hand, their CLI tool is very good.

I wrote some video training material 3 years ago that goes over setting up an ECS cluster and I decided to use the CLI for just about everything. We interact with a number of resources (S3, load balancers, EC2, ECS, ECR, RDS, Elasticache, etc.) and other than a single flag to login to ECR it all works the same today.

I'm happy I chose not to use the web console. The only time I used the web console was for creating IAM roles and I've had to make a bunch of updates since the UI changes pretty often. It would have been a disaster if I used it for everything.

Re: Troubles with the AWS web console

#27

It seems to me that there is a quite profitable business case in a thin abstraction over AWS/Azure/Google App Engine (or whatever it's called now). There are lots of services like Zeit Now and Heroku that supply a complex abstraction to the point where it feels like an entirely different product. What I would want is something that allows me to host docker images/K8s on one of the big three (I guess others as well) a…

Also, don't get stuck in the trap of thinking the solution to a service problem needs to be ... another service ("now you've got n+1 problems"). Such an abstraction layer would be much more effective (yet less monetizable) as a tool - c.f. the original terraform (non-Cloud).

There are already tools that attempt to do a limited form of this such as nixops, which attempts to devolve the ultimate power over someone's services to the user.

Re: Troubles with the AWS web console

#28
It's just so fragmented. Some parts are actually almost great (Lambda) while others are downright awful. Batch is the worst, and it's been like this for years. As soon as you go over a couple of hundred jobs per day, it becomes unmanageable quickly.

You still have to do some trickery with the CLI too. Let's say I want to get all logs from failed Batch jobs in the past day? This involves:

* Listing the Jobs (possibly paginated)

* Parsing out the log stream names from JSON (oh, and separate logs for separate attempts)

* Iterate through log streams and query Cloudwatch (each paginated)

* Parse JSON

I am sure we're all writing half-baked wrappers for our individual use-cases, I am surprised no one's published something generally useful for stuff like this.

Whereas with Kubernetes, that's all a single call with kubectl...

Don't get me wrong, we wouldn't be on AWS if it didn't make sense and they have been pushing development forward a lot. But it's unfortunately fragmented.

The only way to stay sane here is to use Terraform. That way you can stay out of it at least for creation and modification of resources and will have an easier time should you want to migrate.

EDIT: Another great example from Batch: Let's say you have a job that you want to run again, either a retry or changing some parameters.

AWS Console:

* Find job in question (annoying pagination through client-side pagination where refresh puts you back on page 1).

* Click Clone Job

* Perform any changes. (Changing certain fields will reset the command, so make sure you stash that away prior to changing)

* Click Submit

* Job ends up in FAILED state with an ArgumentError because commands can not be over a certain length.

Turns out that the UI will split arguments up, sometimes more than doubling the length of a string, and there's nothing you can do about it except resort to CLI or split it up into smaller jobs if you have that option.

CLI:

* Get job details

* Parse JSON and reconstruct job creation command

* Post

It baffles me how container fields and parameters differ from what you can GET and what you can POST; you really need to parse the job down, and reconstruct the create job request.

I completely understand that it will be like this when services launch. But it's been years now.

Re: Troubles with the AWS web console

#29
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some examples by contradiction: tax returns, AWS Dashboard, many programming languages. By programming languages, do you mean Rust?

Absolutely Rust and JavaScript. Rust would be a far better language if it used S-expressions and didn't try to reinvent a macro syntax. But then it would not be as popular. In this way Lisp suffers from having no syntax, although it's a slightly different argument. When you can't have flamewars about a language's syntax, fewer articles are written about it. So instead, people will argue about the encoding of the AST…

> The phenomenon needs a good name, though.

Jamie Zawinski calls this the CADT model: "Cascade of Attention-Deficit Teenagers".

https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html

Re: Troubles with the AWS web console

#30

I hate AWS so much. I spent 3 hours trying to get a bucket to host a static single page of html and failed completely. I use amazon polly. I wanted to know how many characters I was using each month. I spent 2 hours searching through hundreds of pages and literally couldn't find that information. I thought of trying to start a little text to speech service for dyslexics to make it easy to use Polly but one of the mai…

Uploading a single file to S3 seems like it should be a simple job, that is well-documented: https://docs.aws.amazon.com/AmazonS3/latest/user-guide/uploa... There are parts of AWS that are hard to use, and non-intuitive. But S3 didn't ever seem to be one of them, though perhaps I'm forgetting how hard it was initially. You might consider a "friendly" system for static hosting if raw-S3 is too hard though, such as net…

Ha, I can't upload anything into S3. I'm unable to, from memory, create or modify any of my own buckets. My account is in some weird half-suspended state from a past billing incident, long resolved, where things mostly work - but modifying S3 is not one of them. Support insisted everything was fine even as I uploaded videos of the failures and eventually I just gave up.

I leave a few legacy things running there (billing works, of course) but these days just put personal stuff on Digital Ocean, which seems to meet basically all my needs without the complexity and cheaper to boot.

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