Last German kaiser's heirs fight for riches lost behind Iron Curtain • Hacker News Board

Re: Last German kaiser's heirs fight for riches lost behind Iron Curtain

#21

Post by usrusr » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 9:42 PM UTC

ummonk wrote: post #8

gwbas1c wrote: post #6

> Under a 1994 law, people whose property was expropriated by the Soviet Union have a right to claim compensation -- but only if they did not "lend considerable support" to the Nazi regime. > In a newspaper in 1932, the crown prince called for people to vote for Adolf Hitler in the presidential election, he added. Seems rather straightforward to me.

That doesn't seem quite so straightforward actually. The Nazi regime wasn't a thing yet, as the Nazis had yet to seize power. How obvious was it at the time to Germans that the Nazis would turn out to be so horrible?

Early support only makes it worse. Later support might reasonably be explained away as pragmatism (think von Braun at Mittelbau, who, according to the accepted American interpretation, just cared a bit too little about how exactly he would to get ahead with his goal of shooting stuff to space), but early support is pure embracing of ideology and ruthlessness (see sibling comments).

Re: Last German kaiser's heirs fight for riches lost behind Iron Curtain

#22

Post by michaelvoz » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 9:46 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #20

The same claims are made around the world by people who no resources or prestige, sometimes they win things, sometimes they don't. Examples include Palestinians, descendants of slaves in the US, Native Americans, indigenous peoples around the world. Just about everybody has a history of their ancestors taking things in ways which weren't "legal" AND having things taken from them. It is hard to come up with a consiste…

Made even more difficult by the fact that the current generation did not "do the deed" so to speak. In your example of Palestinians or Native Americans - the "occupiers" were born here, this is their home now, the original conquering generation is very much gone, what solution can there be?

Re: Last German kaiser's heirs fight for riches lost behind Iron Curtain

#23

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 9:47 PM UTC

ummonk wrote: post #8

gwbas1c wrote: post #6

> Under a 1994 law, people whose property was expropriated by the Soviet Union have a right to claim compensation -- but only if they did not "lend considerable support" to the Nazi regime. > In a newspaper in 1932, the crown prince called for people to vote for Adolf Hitler in the presidential election, he added. Seems rather straightforward to me.

That doesn't seem quite so straightforward actually. The Nazi regime wasn't a thing yet, as the Nazis had yet to seize power. How obvious was it at the time to Germans that the Nazis would turn out to be so horrible?

[deleted]

Re: Last German kaiser's heirs fight for riches lost behind Iron Curtain

#24

Post by zokier » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 9:54 PM UTC

Post-communist reparations is one big mess in central Europe. I think the case of Lichtenstein is one of the most stark:

> Through the prince of Liechtenstein and his family, this country on the Alpine Rhine was still closely linked to the distant Czech lands in the first half of the 20th century, and after 1918 the prince and other family members had an influential role in Czechoslovakia as late-Medieval propertied aristocrats. There were two phases which led to the complete loss of this property – firstly, they lost more than half from 1920 to 1938 as a result of Czechoslovak land reform (with financial compensation), and they lost the rest after 1945 through confiscation. The fate of the Czech lands, Czechoslovakia and its population in the first half of the 20th century had repercussions for the Principality of Liechtenstein and the Liechtenstein princely family. The prince was both the head of state and the head of the family. He gradually lost 90% of his assets as a result of land reform and confiscation in Czechoslovakia. From the 1920s to the 1960s the prince and his family were plagued by financial difficulties.

It is easy to brush these away as long past history, but for example these properties were confiscated from the hands of the current princes father. That I'd think as pretty close connection still.

Re: Last German kaiser's heirs fight for riches lost behind Iron Curtain

#25

Post by markdown » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 10:01 PM UTC

michaelvoz wrote: post #22

colechristensen wrote: post #20

The same claims are made around the world by people who no resources or prestige, sometimes they win things, sometimes they don't. Examples include Palestinians, descendants of slaves in the US, Native Americans, indigenous peoples around the world. Just about everybody has a history of their ancestors taking things in ways which weren't "legal" AND having things taken from them. It is hard to come up with a consiste…

Made even more difficult by the fact that the current generation did not "do the deed" so to speak. In your example of Palestinians or Native Americans - the "occupiers" were born here, this is their home now, the original conquering generation is very much gone, what solution can there be?

> In your example of Palestinians... the "occupiers" were born here, this is their home now, the original conquering generation is very much gone

Nothing could be further from the truth.

https://www.amnestyusa.org/lets-be-clear-israels-long-runnin...

Re: Last German kaiser's heirs fight for riches lost behind Iron Curtain

#26

Post by sandworm101 » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 10:01 PM UTC

TomMckenny wrote: post #15

So Australia, Canada, and the US are going to be returned to their previous owners? There is zero consistency in these kinds of claims because what is really happening is an influential family with plenty of resources for lawyers is going to grab a shipload of German taxpayer euros using tortured legal arguments.

Well, in the US lots of people are behind Americans getting compensation for things lost when Cuba when communist, property lost when the government nationalized ports and factories. I don't see how that is any different than German's claiming for material lost to a different communist tide.

The real issue is whether one believed that property rights can really be destroyed. What does it mean to "own" something? Is it ownership in the eyes of a particular government? What if that government falls? Is it a super-governmental right? Is the Church an authority (ie church records)? Imho it boils down to who is in power and what they decide to do, whether they choose to respect your claim or not. All the legal arguments are secondary.

Anyone who thinks they "own" part of the moon knows this problem. Your ownership only matters to a country that wants to respect your moon rights, ie none of them.

Re: Last German kaiser's heirs fight for riches lost behind Iron Curtain

#27

Post by weiser » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 10:04 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #20

The same claims are made around the world by people who no resources or prestige, sometimes they win things, sometimes they don't. Examples include Palestinians, descendants of slaves in the US, Native Americans, indigenous peoples around the world. Just about everybody has a history of their ancestors taking things in ways which weren't "legal" AND having things taken from them. It is hard to come up with a consiste…

This is simply solved with intermarriages. Make 2 people 1.

Happened throughout history. When it didn't, led to conflict.

Re: Last German kaiser's heirs fight for riches lost behind Iron Curtain

#28

Post by colechristensen » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 10:14 PM UTC

markdown wrote: post #25

michaelvoz wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Made even more difficult by the fact that the current generation did not "do the deed" so to speak. In your example of Palestinians or Native Americans - the "occupiers" were born here, this is their home now, the original conquering generation is very much gone, what solution can there be?

> In your example of Palestinians... the "occupiers" were born here, this is their home now, the original conquering generation is very much gone Nothing could be further from the truth. https://www.amnestyusa.org/lets-be-clear-israels-long-runnin...

Much of that conflict is about things that were done generations ago. True, recent and current actions also fit the bill, but it is disingenuous to claim that the settlement activity is the primary mover of the situation.

One thing that link throws around is the word "illegal". There are customs and treaties, but there is not a world government to enforce the rule of law for these treaties. Many of the definitions like "occupied territory" are up for debate as well. It just doesn't come down to a clear set of rules and an authority to enforce them.

Re: Last German kaiser's heirs fight for riches lost behind Iron Curtain

#29

Post by oh_sigh » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 10:21 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #14

gwbas1c wrote: post #6

> Under a 1994 law, people whose property was expropriated by the Soviet Union have a right to claim compensation -- but only if they did not "lend considerable support" to the Nazi regime. > In a newspaper in 1932, the crown prince called for people to vote for Adolf Hitler in the presidential election, he added. Seems rather straightforward to me.

Define "considerable". I'm just about certain that the lawyers are going to be arguing about whether that event crosses the threshold or not.

Well, a person with the bully pulpit coming out announcing that you should all put your trust in Adolph sounds like considerable support. If some random baker did it, maybe not.

Re: Last German kaiser's heirs fight for riches lost behind Iron Curtain

#30

Post by colechristensen » Wed, Sep 04, 2019, 10:22 PM UTC

weiser wrote: post #27

colechristensen wrote: post #20

The same claims are made around the world by people who no resources or prestige, sometimes they win things, sometimes they don't. Examples include Palestinians, descendants of slaves in the US, Native Americans, indigenous peoples around the world. Just about everybody has a history of their ancestors taking things in ways which weren't "legal" AND having things taken from them. It is hard to come up with a consiste…

This is simply solved with intermarriages. Make 2 people 1. Happened throughout history. When it didn't, led to conflict.

This is related to how I take issue with many of the "progressive" things people are talking about with identity.

If you want people to be liberated from discrimination and oppression the best thing to do is change the general mindset to unity "we're both human" instead of reinforcing differences and creating new categories for people and then trying to enforce rights that only people in a certain classification can have.

The best summary of this I saw was the sign for a coffee shop bathroom. It had a list of genders: men, women, and a few others I don't quite remember. The problem I have with this is the bathroom was one room with a toilet and sink. There was obviously no need to be "inclusive", just put a sign up that says "restroom" and that's it. Nobody needs to be included or excluded, progress is made by making the shallow distinctions which get discriminated against – making those irrelevant to day to day life.