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The growing science of memory manipulation

scientificamerican.com

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Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#21

Post by dclowd9901 »

aloknnikhil wrote: post #10
slim wrote: post #9

The mere possibility of tampering with memory is indeed the most dangerous thing that could happen to humanity. Imagine not being able to believe your own memory. In fact we don't have to imagine, I believe I've been subjected to "mass gaslighting" on multiple occasions recently on the internet : some piece of information I'm sure I saw on the internet suddenly completely disappears. Google + Facebook + "right to be…

It also complicates the legal system as it exists today. The fact that artificial memory can be induced in someone's brain makes believing a witness a lot harder. So in addition to social and ethical concerns, it also upends the legal system.

To be honest, witness testimony should never be or have been the sole basis for convictions. Peoples’ memory is so fraught with error that it’s basically useless on its own merits.

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#22

Post by dclowd9901 »

apatters wrote: post #14

Interesting article but I was hoping for more discussion of the ethical implications mentioned in the title. As a society we frequently start with with consent as a cornerstone of whether something is ethical or not (if it's done to you against your will, it's bad). Then we decide whether there are certain lines you shouldn't cross because the result would be harmful for you or society. For instance, you can drink as…

It shouldn’t be allowed at all. If your memory is alterable, who’s to say you agreed to it in the first place.

I know there are people out there that can benefit from this, but it’s too dangerous to exist.

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#24

Post by TeMPOraL »

sysbin wrote: post #16
apatters wrote: post #14

Interesting article but I was hoping for more discussion of the ethical implications mentioned in the title. As a society we frequently start with with consent as a cornerstone of whether something is ethical or not (if it's done to you against your will, it's bad). Then we decide whether there are certain lines you shouldn't cross because the result would be harmful for you or society. For instance, you can drink as…

Those lines will be crossed by just visiting a country that has different interpretations of what's acceptable to do. I could also see the severely mentally ill or mentally handicapped, having no personal say in what happens to them and similar to today when it comes to medication being used.

> Those lines will be crossed by just visiting a country that has different interpretations of what's acceptable to do.

To some extent. For instance, I know of no country that allows you to drive while intoxicated (modulo varying minimums) while having enough car and population density for such driving to be a problem.

You're probably thinking of China and their laxer approach towards human genetic research. But that's arguably just having lines that shall not be crossed and staying on the good side of them; US and Europe seem to have decided instead to ban the whole field.

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#25

Post by samplatt »

pimmen wrote: post #11

One of the regulations must be that hacking someone’s brain, as in deleting or inserting memories into someone without consent, is a crime akin to rape and torture. You are violating someone’s sense of self and identity in ways the person can’t reverse (the offender merely has to insert a memory of the person consenting, or delete the experience entirely) and you reduce the person’s agency by treating them like an ob…

They WON'T have regulations or treaties though - not any that mean a damn, anyway. Putting aside the obvious issues of doing this against someone's will, let's have a quick look at some extremes that could be done with someone's full consent:

What if someone WANTED a memory implanted of raping someone, so they could get off to it? The consensual BDSM sphere is huge. Obviously pedophilic false memories would be outlawed immediately, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't exist.

What if someone wanted to self-identify as a robot, or a sex slave, or just plain simple property. Could they have elective surgery for blank-memory-removal to assist with their transition?

Say we went nope, full blanket-banning of the technology as a whole, it's just too legally messy to allow. What if someone has experienced severe emotional trauma from real-life events, and needs them dulled or removed to function in society? It instantly becomes a politically-charged pro-life/pro-choice ticket issue that gets carted out every time the government wants to make some noise.

What if someone is the victim of such a procedure (done illegally) - is it okay to have some governmental arm "anti-hack" their brain.

Also, . Also, .

If the technology ever genuinely bears fruit, then only two things are certain to happen: it will be used illegally, and it will be used by governments in secret. Sometimes both of these at once :-)

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#26

Post by samplatt »

sysbin wrote: post #15
pintxo wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure I am looking forward to experience a blue screen like, in my brain.

I assume humans already experience a blue screen when suffering schizophrenia and or hallucinating.

We experience blue screens dropping a bottle of milk. There's ways to freeze a brain or trap it into a kernal panic that require zero technology whatsoever.

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#27

Post by raxxorrax »

dclowd9901 wrote: post #21
aloknnikhil wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also complicates the legal system as it exists today. The fact that artificial memory can be induced in someone's brain makes believing a witness a lot harder. So in addition to social and ethical concerns, it also upends the legal system.

To be honest, witness testimony should never be or have been the sole basis for convictions. Peoples’ memory is so fraught with error that it’s basically useless on its own merits.

I think this is an exaggeration. Witnesses often try to be as helpful as possible and in doing so may supply too much information they themselves aren't able to verify. Of course that can prove to undermine their statements in the first place, but I don't believe attesting memory failures addresses the core of the problem with witness reports.

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#28

Post by nine_k »

simonh wrote: post #20
npstr wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A human is just an animal.

An animal with analytical and self-reflective mental faculties other animals do not seem to possess, or be able to articulate. For example, I know that some of my memories are not original. They are memories of me previously remembering something, which I was able to remember clearly at the time, but can’t recall as clearly now. But my memory of the experience of remembering it and the circumstances in which I did so…

Great apes, corvids, large parrots recognize their reflection in a mirror. Some of them are known to use tools in the wild.

Cetaceans are officially recognized as conscious beings.

What separates humans from animals is not a sharp edge, but something more like a smooth gradient.

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#29

Post by joe_the_user »

slim wrote: post #9

The mere possibility of tampering with memory is indeed the most dangerous thing that could happen to humanity. Imagine not being able to believe your own memory. In fact we don't have to imagine, I believe I've been subjected to "mass gaslighting" on multiple occasions recently on the internet : some piece of information I'm sure I saw on the internet suddenly completely disappears. Google + Facebook + "right to be…

Unfortunately, I've got news for you, fallible and manipulable memories have been around for a long time.

For example, see the research of Elizabeth Loftus:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Loftus

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#30

Post by tsimionescu »

eternalban wrote: post #2

This is a provocative experiment, both in terms of the results and certain elements of the employed experimental techniques. What I found particularly interesting is that it elicits a consideration of what is memory. Is the association of stimulus-response a 'memory'? (Where does that leave 'instinct'?) One could argue that the experiment has created an artificial 'instinct' and not 'memory' given that there was no '…

It is obvious and well known that phenomena happen in the outisde world, but experience happens in the brain - Perception, usually mediated through Sensing. But when I remember seeing a friend in a dream, that is a real memory of a real experience, but there was no phenomenon in the world outside my head that caused the experience.

At the current level of understanding, it is pretty clear that if we could send the correct signals we control on the optic nerve, we would be causing the brain to have an experience to the same extent that the retina does. I don't think we know enough yet to go further than the optic nerve and say that we could induce a signal 'after' the optic nerve and produce the exact same effect,but that is still plausible. The next level of manipulation would be to induce signals into the brain as if they are coming from the visual processing area without directly stimulating the visual processing center at all - this is far further into the future, if it is even possible.

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