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In Defense Of The PhD

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Re: In Defense Of The PhD

#21
post #5

As it happens, I'm defending my dissertation tomorrow (neuroscience, U.S.) and this post pretty well sums up my sentiment. I particularly agree with the ending: Oh you’re saying I’m a dreamer, and that simply never happens? Well what about those thousands of internet start-up companies? They waste their time as well, trying to become another Facebook or another Google. Yet they still do it, because it’s their dream t…

Break a leg! I defended mine last month, and let me tell you- the sense of relief afterwards is amazing.

Re: In Defense Of The PhD

#22
post #4

Normal people don’t study philosophy, and if they’re into computer science, they don’t care whether P!=NP — they just learn Java, Objective-C, Python or whatever else they find useful for becoming a successful software engineer. I resent that. Most programmers I've met find theoretical CS interesting, and learn things simply for the intellectual value of it. They just want to build things people use.

My experience is almost exactly the opposite. Most programmers care little to nothing about any sort of CS or theory. I've met successful programmers with years of experience who'd never even heard of even the simplest CS concepts like linked lists. How their language of choice actually works below the surface is a complete black box to them, and they're quite happy to keep it that way.

If you meet a programmer who cares in any way about theory, then they are with all likelihood comfortably in the top 50th percentile and probably also in the top 25th.

Re: In Defense Of The PhD

#23
post #8

The comparison between startups and PhDs is not esp. appropriate. The entrepreneur often is willing to assume greater risk for greater pecuniary reward, whereas the PhD often is not assuming any greater risk but willing to accept likely lesser pay to do what he loves. Which isn't to say that there is a class of entrepreneurs that start companies simply because they love starting companies, but that this isn't unique…

I agree that it's not a perfect comparison, but there are undoubtably similarities. In both cases, you're working mostly on your own, on a project that you have to define and that is entirely dependent on your personal level of self-motivation. One of the biggest challenges to running a startup seems to be correctly defining the problem on which to work, and the single biggest hurdle to finishing a PhD is coming up with your dissertation topic.

Re: In Defense Of The PhD

#24
post #13

I'll defend the PhD for different reasons. It educates you further. You acquire knowledge you don't get elsewhere. You get a range of skills and learning opportunities you don't get elsewhere - some of which are very useful when trying to discover new human knowledge. Research labs in universities do - and have traditionally - discovered much new human knowledge; they are good at it. Using earnings as the sole measur…

My dad has worked at a grocery store for almost 33 years, and he's 50 years old. He always made good money (especially for not having a degree), and did a good job, but I never felt like he actually liked his job, especially with all the crap he has to go through from both employees and bosses. He's been salary for a long time, and has worked probably an average of 60+ hours a week for the past 12 years.

This always had a profound effect on me. A long time ago I decided that I would always strive to have a job that I truly liked, something that payed enough but didn't suck the life out of me. I'm in a job that I love now with only a Bachelors, but I kind of got stupid lucky with it. A PhD is really the best ways to secure a job that you'll likely love. You may get paid lower than you'd expect for someone with your skills, but money isn't everything.

I don't know anyone who has gone to school for a PhD just to get a better paying job when they get out.

Re: In Defense Of The PhD

#25
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universities in the Netherlands are getting hit by budget cuts pretty severely as well. This means that permanent contracts are getting harder and harder to come by in academia. Three main reasons for this in the Netherlands: * A permanent employee of a university is considered a civil servant, which means that it is impossible to fire him. * A temporary employee is "protected" by law; after three consecutive tempora…

Wow. In Norway, there is a similar problem with the "four-year" rule, which means it becomes very hard to fire someone who has worked for an employer for over four years. Now the PhD of course also takes four years, and PhD students are employees. In practice, almost no-one claims the four-year rule following, say, the PhD and a short-term research-assistant engagement (there was a recent case where two people in Osl…

The PhD contract is just a single contract, and a position only becomes permanent after a third contract in a number of years I think.

Once you get your PhD, and you're rehired at the university, you get a different position, starting the counter from 0 again.

But no, if Norway had the three contract rule as I described, the people you know would have been fired already.

Re: In Defense Of The PhD

#26
Oh please, guy says linked articles are crap because they are only about US and UK and there is still rest of the world where the situation looks different. But he himself says only about Norway, Denmark, The Netherlands which are at the very top of the richest countries in the world list (he mentions also Slovakia which apparently has good PhD programs funding) and excludes poorer European countries such as Poland and Ukraine because they are too poor. I am sorry, but what kind of argumentation is this? Article is bad because it is only about US and UK but his blog entry is OK even though he compares only three richest countries in the world?

Re: In Defense Of The PhD

#27
I'm happy I'm currently in the middle of my PhD, but this article makes a bunch of errors. It generally strikes me as the naive impression that undergrad have of grad school until they spend some time talking to post-doc and professors. I'll just identify a couple of obvious ones.

1. "We all read the PhD Comics and we all hear about how many hours of coursework or admin-duties a typical US grad student has. I don’t know how does it look like in other countries, but in Norway, Denmark, Holland and Belgium this is definitely not the case. "

The Economist article doesn't say anything about there being too much non-research work. It says there are very long hours, and part of it is non-research. The OP has simply misinterpreted the Economist article. I don't know any grad students in the US who spend more than 25% time on teaching, and the OP lists this maximum as some sort of great aspect of the Nordic system.

2. "Apart from all that, a little bit of teaching looks good in your CV, especially if you want to apply for post-doc or other academic positions after finishing a PhD."

For most grad students, than this is just plain wrong. No one cares how good of a teacher you are (especially not for post-doc positions) unless your end goal is a teaching position at a small liberal arts college. But most most grad student's end goals are either research positions or industry.

Re: In Defense Of The PhD

#28
post #8

The comparison between startups and PhDs is not esp. appropriate. The entrepreneur often is willing to assume greater risk for greater pecuniary reward, whereas the PhD often is not assuming any greater risk but willing to accept likely lesser pay to do what he loves. Which isn't to say that there is a class of entrepreneurs that start companies simply because they love starting companies, but that this isn't unique…

Money isn't everything. Article is comparing absolute rewards, not pecuniary rewards. That said, I would say that a PHD is a much more modest risk than a startup, and has similarly modest rewards.

Re: In Defense Of The PhD

#29
While I think this article makes some decent points, I have to say that in all the recent discussion around the value of a phd and whether or not the system is broken the only really strong defenders of the way things are have been those who are currently pursuing a PhD.

As someone who has been able to swing a faculty position without one (wanting to remain anonymous I'm not going to say what exactly is the case, but I will say it's definitely not because I'm particularly clever). It saddens me to see friends who were brilliant PhD students at very good schools, doing post doc work at mediocre schools that don't even do research in their area of interest (and these are some people in the math and sciences). Almost none of the people I know with PhD work in the humanities are doing anything even close to what they studied.

I don't think the people who are pursuing PhDs are necessarily the ones who are broken, but there is definitely a problem with the system, and I don't think most phd student will realize it until they've graduated.

Re: In Defense Of The PhD

#30
To add to the discussion, the ability that the PhD gave me was the confidence to "roll my sleeves up" and delve into the muck to try and figure out how to get something working, or figure out why something is not working.
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